The Two Witnesses

Jen35 · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Are you objecting that there will indeed be two witnesses during the Tribulation? You don't think the Revelations passage is literal?

I believe there could be two witnesses. Probably two people who share the same testimony, are connected with one another and is in the presence of the Lord everyday. And I also believe they can very well be on this earth right now secretly working for God...

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

Jen35 said:
I believe there could be two witnesses. Probably two people who share the same testimony, are connected with one another and is in the presence of the Lord everyday. And I also believe they can very well be on this earth right now secretly working for God...

Okay, you are just objecting that Elijah and Moses could be those 2. That is fine.

timewerx · Aug 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Josephus would surely have made mention of these events - rivers turning to blood - folks getting killed by fire - And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. - publically witnessed mass resurrections - a great earthquake with 7,000 dead...

It could have actually happened in WW2

Rivers turning into blood, Hitler's Nazi army striking the Earth with all manners of plagues (chemical weapons). Burning their enemies with fire (gun / cannon fire, obviously).

And when Hitler spoke during Nazi rallies, the sky was shut, it didn't rain.

And then everyone rejoiced in the streets when Hitler was killed and European war is over. His body never buried.

Of course, I'm just kidding!! ^_^

But seriously, all these events during WW2 did happen! Including what the Germans call "Fuhrer Weather" The sky shut in every Nazi rally!

Yep, fornicating on the streets to celebrate end of Ww2!

woman-thought-to-be-in-iconic-v-j-day-kiss-photo-diess-featured-photo.jpg

throughfiierytrial · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Are you objecting that there will indeed be two witnesses during the Tribulation? You don't think the Revelations passage is literal?

In the traditional view, and I subscribe to this view, the tribulation is our time on earth. This is confirmed by the words of Christ Jesus...
John 16:33:
In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
So, the two witnesses (Christ and His Church) testify during this tribulation to a rebellious world. They use the Word which is a double edged sword...Law and Gospel. All who do not reach out for Jesus and His Gospel will hate the witnesses and celebrate their death and the death of the Gospel. To their great shock and horror they will see them all face to face in heaven...back to life!

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
In the traditional view, and I subscribe to this view, the tribulation is our time on earth. This is confirmed by the words of Christ Jesus...
John 16:33:
In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
So, the two witnesses (Christ and His Church) testify during this tribulation to a rebellious world. They use the Word which is a double edged sword...Law and Gospel. All who do not reach out for Jesus and His Gospel will hate the witnesses and celebrate their death and the death of the Gospel. To their great shock and horror they will see them all face to face in heaven...back to life!

You mean you think NOW is the tribulation, or you don't accept the rapture of the church before the tribulation?

Carl Emerson · Aug 3, 2019

timewerx said:
It could have actually happened in WW2

Rivers turning into blood, Hitler's Nazi army striking the Earth with all manners of plagues (chemical weapons). Burning their enemies with fire (gun / cannon fire, obviously).

And when Hitler spoke during Nazi rallies, the sky was shut, it didn't rain.

And then everyone rejoiced in the streets when Hitler was killed and European war is over. His body never buried.

Of course, I'm just kidding!!

But seriously, all these events during WW2 did happen! Including what the Germans call "Fuhrer Weather" The sky shut in every Nazi rally!

Yep, fornicating on the streets to celebrate end of Ww2!

Except the two witnesses were from God not the other side...

throughfiierytrial · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
You mean you think NOW is the tribulation, or you don't accept the rapture of the church before the tribulation?

Yes, in my view NOW is the tribulation...everyday before the Judgement Day. The rapture is just as
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 state...this and I Corinthians 15. The rapture is the time the believers are called to Jesus and the unbelievers to damnation. I imagine you'd be curious to know what I think about the 1000 year reign given this doctrine...maybe? Just so happens I posted something on another forum/thread on this and will copy/paste it to you if you're curious enough. Let me know.

Carl Emerson · Aug 3, 2019

For what it is worth (I am not called to teach on end times) so this is a hunch only...

The two witnesses will be two ordinary 'Joe Blow' believers from the future underground church, at a future time after the third temple is built, and they will be anointed to bear witness literally in the way described in Rev 11. This is the second woe.

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Yes, in my view NOW is the tribulation...everyday before the Judgement Day. The rapture is just as
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 state...this and I Corinthians 15. The rapture is the time the believers are called to Jesus and the unbelievers to damnation. I imagine you'd be curious to know what I think about the 1000 year reign given this doctrine...maybe? Just so happens I posted something on another forum/thread on this and will copy/paste it to you if you're curious enough. Let me know.

I see, so you don't believe it last 7 years then. Okay, not everyone interpret bible verses literally.

Carl Emerson · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Okay, you are just objecting that Elijah and Moses could be those 2. That is fine.

Jas 5:16

confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

The obedient believer already has the nature of Elijah.

throughfiierytrial · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
I see, so you don't believe it last 7 years then. Okay, not everyone interpret bible verses literally.

Many numbers in the Bible are to be taken both literally and have a symbolic meaning as well. I am not sure of which location within the Bible you are referring to. The number 3 is God's purpose and the number 7 is completion or fullness or fullfillment.
Christ was in the grave 3 days according to God's purpose, but do a Biblegateway search for the many usages of 3 for God's purpose. Hebrews 4:1-11 gives a strong indication that 7 was and is and should be taken symbolically as well as Matthew 18:21-22 and Luke 17:4.
I cannot address your question directly until I get your citation.

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Many numbers in the Bible are to be taken both literally and have a symbolic meaning as well. I am not sure of which location within the Bible you are referring to. The number 3 is God's purpose and the number 7 is completion or fullness or fullfillment.
Christ was in the grave 3 days according to God's purpose, but do a Biblegateway search for the many usages of 3 for God's purpose. Hebrews 4:1-11 gives a strong indication that 7 was and is and should be taken symbolically as well as Matthew 18:21-22 and Luke 17:4.
I cannot address your question directly until I get your citation.

First passage is Daniel 9:27

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27)

One week has been determined to be 7 years. How do you know that?

Because in the middle of the week, the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation. And we already know that once the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 42 months or three and half years to go before the end. So this tells us that one week is equal to 7 years.

This is how you know that the Tribulation is for a 7 year time period.

The next passage from Daniel specifically tells you that once the animal sacrifice is taken away from the Jews and the abomination of desolation is set up, that there will be 1290 days until the end! 1290 days is three and half years and 13 days.

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days (1335).” (Daniel 12:11-12)

Here is another verse showing that the Antichrist will have a period of 42 months to continue his carnage. This verse uses the unit of time of 42 months, which again is three and half years.

“And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty two months.” (Revelation 13:5)

Finally, here is the verse from Jesus telling everyone to run for the hills once the abomination of desolation occurs with the Antichrist. This is where Jesus also tells us that this Tribulation will be the worst tribulation that the world has ever seen or will ever see again.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, then those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jas 5:16

confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

The obedient believer already has the nature of Elijah.

That may be true but as Malachi stated, Elijah must return to Earth before Jesus can come again.

Dave L · Aug 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

If you are a literalist, you will miss the point of the symbol expecting the symbol to appear in the distant (nonexistent) future. If you look for what the symbol represents, you will see fulfillment in history, the present and in the future.

throughfiierytrial · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
First passage is Daniel 9:27

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27)

One week has been determined to be 7 years. How do you know that?

Because in the middle of the week, the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation. And we already know that once the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 42 months or three and half years to go before the end. So this tells us that one week is equal to 7 years.

This is how you know that the Tribulation is for a 7 year time period.

The next passage from Daniel specifically tells you that once the animal sacrifice is taken away from the Jews and the abomination of desolation is set up, that there will be 1290 days until the end! 1290 days is three and half years and 13 days.

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days (1335).” (Daniel 12:11-12)

Here is another verse showing that the Antichrist will have a period of 42 months to continue his carnage. This verse uses the unit of time of 42 months, which again is three and half years.

“And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty two months.” (Revelation 13:5)

Finally, here is the verse from Jesus telling everyone to run for the hills once the abomination of desolation occurs with the Antichrist. This is where Jesus also tells us that this Tribulation will be the worst tribulation that the world has ever seen or will ever see again.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, then those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

Thank you for your post...I will read it and respond...first: SLEEP!!

Jen35 · Aug 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Okay, you are just objecting that Elijah and Moses could be those 2. That is fine.

Yes I believe i am because we are in a new age and I believe God will do something new but even if it was Elijah and Moses, what testimony could Elijah and Moses have of which is relevant today? I don't think it's them because the bible never taught such or tells us who the two are. However Jesus did mention one coming in the likeness of elijah and who will be greater than John the Baptist. But who people claim them to be is just educated guesses and don't pertain to any truth of it entirely...

Guojing · Aug 3, 2019

Jen35 said:
Yes I believe i am because we are in a new age and I believe God will do something new but even if it was Elijah and Moses, what testimony could Elijah and Moses have of which is relevant today? I don't think it's them because the bible never taught such or tells us who the two are. However Jesus did mention one coming in the likeness of elijah and who will be greater than John the Baptist. But who people claim them to be is just educated guesses and don't pertain to any truth of it entirely...

The Jews placed them in high esteem obviously. And if Jews are going to have to accept Jesus during the Tribulation, which better two guys are there to promote him than Moses and Elijah?

As I have stated Rev 11:6 provides the clearest clue who the 2 are, in terms of the signs they will perform.

swordsman1 · Aug 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

As with most of Revelation, interpretations are varied and widespread. With so many viable interpretations of the 2 witnesses it cannot be offered as a proof text for the continuation of the gift of miracles (or prophecy) in the church. Even if we assume they are 2 literal Christian people, doesn't the fact that God has to specifically raise up 2 people with miraculous powers indicate the gift of miracles had ceased in the mainstream church?

Greengardener · Aug 3, 2019

I've had lots of similar questions, so I really enjoy and appreciate reading when someone posts one and other folks chime in. As to a conclusion, I'm still looking, and I wonder if that's the point of it anyway, to keep looking and to compare notes along the way.

devin553344 · Aug 3, 2019

swordsman1 said:
As with most of Revelation, interpretations are varied and widespread. With so many viable interpretations of the 2 witnesses it cannot be offered as a proof text for the continuation of the gift of miracles (or prophecy) in the church. Even if we assume they are 2 literal Christian people, doesn't the fact that God has to specifically raise up 2 people with miraculous powers indicate the gift of miracles had ceased in the mainstream church?

Which "mainstream church" are you referring to? Not all churches claim gifts have ceased. John 14:11-12

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

There is a good article on belief in Miracles and how the gifts have not ceased, they give historic record:Do Today's Christians Believe in Miracles?

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