Jesus’ #1 goal: to set believers FREE from sin!

CharismaticLady said:

I agree. Many forget to acknowledge the Holy Spirit's part in our salvation.

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Many people forget our part in our salvation... weighing the ways of man against the ways of the Kingdom and determining which is lacking. The earliest followers of Jesus were known as the haters of mankind for a reason.

timothyu said:

The earliest followers of Jesus were known as the haters of mankind for a reason.

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That's confusing, because Jesus taught us to love, not hate.

Our responsibility is to WALK in the Spirit in order to follow Jesus.

CharismaticLady said:

That's confusing, because Jesus taught us to love, not hate.
Our responsibility is to WALK in the Spirit in order to follow Jesus.

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They did not call themselves that. But because they were of the Kingdom they hated the traditional ways of man, the self interest, self determination of the definition of good and evil to suit man's purposes, etc.. Because those of the world did not understand the difference between their traditional ways and the opposing ways of God, they just assumed Jesus' followers hated mankind, but in reality they just hated (but repented of) who we as a people are by nature of the world.

timothyu said:

I'm sorry. I cannot take responsibility. Ask your teachers in matters of the Kingdom.

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This is the very sort of deflective, vague response I was expecting.

aiki said:

This is the very sort of deflective, vague response I was expecting.

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How else do you answer a non-specific vague question ?

timothyu said:

Oddly enough Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom was all about repentance/change from the self serving ways of man to the selfless ways of the alternate Kingdom.

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The Gospel of the Kingdom was for the Jews only. Jesus himself stated that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

Guojing said:

The Gospel of the Kingdom was for the Jews only. Jesus himself stated that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

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Paul spent his time teaching it to the Gentiles.

Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

timothyu said:

Paul spent his time teaching it to the Gentiles.

Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

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Well only Jews were allowed in the synagogue, so Acts 19 should not be referring to Gentiles. As for Acts 28, again you are arguing from silence that those are non Jews. Scripture did not say.

But even if I grant you that point, that there were Gentiles, the real difference between the GOK preached by Paul and the one preached by Peter in Acts was that, at no point, Paul offered the physical return of Jesus to his listeners if they accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, unlike what Peter did in Acts 3:19-20.

So no, Paul did not preach the same GOK as Peter did.

Guojing said:

So no, Paul did not preach the same GOK as Peter did.

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They all taught the same rejection of the self serving ways of man for the selfless ways of the Kingdom. They all taught a counter-culture to the traditional culture of man. They put the Kingdom/governance of God ahead of the governance of man. They all taught the goods news and ways of the Kingdom in comparison to the failed ways of man.

timothyu said:

They all taught the same rejection of the self serving ways of man for the selfless ways of the Kingdom. They all taught a counter-culture to the traditional culture of man. They put the Kingdom/governance of God ahead of the governance of man. They all taught the goods news and ways of the Kingdom in comparison to the failed ways of man.

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Yes, I am not denying that. But Peter in Acts 2 proclaimed that the Tribulation will begin very soon and hence he is tying the GOK to the 2nd return of Jesus for them. That is the GOK that is being preached. It made sense because Peter heard Jesus saying that the Jews have only 1 more year to accept their Messiah before they are cut off. Luke 13:7-9

If Paul did preach GOK, which I doubt so, it was fundamentally different.

zoidar said:

2% believe you can lose salvation? How do you get to that number? I say 80% believe we CAN lose salvation. Catholics believe this, Orthodox, Lutherans and also many Pentecostals.

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You're right. Maybe 80% is a bit high in that case then.

Guojing said:

If Paul did preach GOK, which I doubt so, it was fundamentally different.

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Jesus said 'Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you'. If Paul is not doing that then why listen to him?

btw ..part of the Gospel of the kingdom. This is what Christianity was meant to be based on.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

CharismaticLady said:

Only God knows, but I think 80% is more like it. At least, I hope 98% are not deceived. I've been on different Christian forum sites and was astounded at what some denominations teach. It blew my mind. Up until then I never knew what Calvin taught, or what Luther taught. I have to say I was shocked. I know what the Word says, and some of what they believed was the exact opposite of Scripture. If you haven't already guessed, Sardis was the Reformation.

What is funny, is I recommended Chuck Missler for the letters to the seven churches, and Chuck believed in OSAS. LOL Don't get me wrong. What I don't believe about that belief is that once saved you can sin all you want and not lose your salvation as Luther taught. Yikes! I believe that 1 John 3:18-23 shows you CAN be assured, but it is those who KEEP His commandments. The sign of that is answered prayer. 100% of my prayers are answered so I know I am saved, and don't plan on ever willfully committing sins to lose it.

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There is another viewpoint on this. Both OSAS and "losing" salvation is also correct. Allow me to explain:

Many Christians, maybe the majority do not truly convert towards becoming a Christian. They repeat a prayer (usually the sinner's prayer), and they're told, "You are now saved! Welcome to the body of Christ my brother!" Usually, this is a false conversion and nothing has actually happened aside from words repeated with no inward change.

If one is truly converted he has a change of heart towards Christ and sin, he is truly born again and therefore, regeneration has begun. Once a true conversion has taken place, there is no falling away. There is not willful sinning because Christ is in you. You hate sin, and willful sin is no longer an option.

So to summarize. People cannot "lose" their salvation if they never had it to begin with. When a true conversion takes place, that person is saved and God has put His Spirit in him. God does not take his gifts back.

I will listen to Chuck Missler, thanks for the source. I can see that the revelation series is very long, but if it's good I will listen to the full series.

timothyu said:

Jesus said 'Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you'. If Paul is not doing that then why listen to him?

btw ..part of the Gospel of the kingdom. This is what Christianity was meant to be based on.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

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Paul was not even saved during Matt 28 when Jesus said that.

By the time Paul was saved, one year has passed and the Jewish nation have clearly rejected him by stoning Stephen. The era of the Gospel of the Kingdom has been postponed.

Jesus saved Paul to preach a different Gospel to the Gentiles, which is the Gospel of Grace, the only valid gospel for now.

Paul himself stated in Galatians 1

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4: 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Romans 8 said:

I will listen to Chuck Missler, thanks for the source. I can see that the revelation series is very long, but if it's good I will listen to the full series.

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Start with the letters to the seven churches, instead of as part of the Revelation series. Though I haven't listened to it yet. I may have it on cassette as I once bought this guys cassette library off ebay. Chuck may not go as much in detail in the whole book series.

Romans 8 said:

If one is truly converted he has a change of heart towards Christ and sin, he is truly born again and therefore, regeneration has begun. Once a true conversion has taken place, there is no falling away. There is not willful sinning because Christ is in you. You hate sin, and willful sin is no longer an option.

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I love this. You realize that once converted he has a change of heart towards Christ and sin, he is truly born again and therefore REGENERATION HAS BEGUN.

Calvin taught that Christ chooses who they will save and regenerates their heart in order for them to turn towards Christ and repent. I love it that you do not have your cart before your horse! You are right my friend.

Romans 8 said:

So to summarize. People cannot "lose" their salvation if they never had it to begin with. When a true conversion takes place, that person is saved and God has put His Spirit in him. God does not take his gifts back.

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I believe you mean that salvation is a gift. Be careful with that thought, for only those who are righteous or holy to the end of their lives will be saved.

Look at the Jews that did not accept the gospel. Romans 11 says, 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Even Pentecostals who received the Spirit and many gifts of the Spirit, if they start to get entangled with the world and sin like embezzling funds or having an affair, may still love their church and still have their gifts and because of the evidence of these gifts being present in their lives believe they are still saved, but Jesus will say to them,

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There status at the end of their life determines where they will go in the end. The filthy will not become righteous in a mythical place like purgatory, the righteous will never sin sometime in the future of eternity. They will stay as they are.

Revelation 22:11
11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

They will then be divided; some to everlasting hell, some to everlasting glory.

@Guojing and @timothyu

Why did Paul have Timothy circumcised for the sake of the Jews? That has always bothered me.

Guojing said:

Well only Jews were allowed in the synagogue, so Acts 19 should not be referring to Gentiles. As for Acts 28, again you are arguing from silence that those are non Jews. Scripture did not say.

But even if I grant you that point, that there were Gentiles, the real difference between the GOK preached by Paul and the one preached by Peter in Acts was that, at no point, Paul offered the physical return of Jesus to his listeners if they accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, unlike what Peter did in Acts 3:19-20.

So no, Paul did not preach the same GOK as Peter did.

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Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4, if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So if Paul believed Jesus taught something different in the sense that he did not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness that came beforehand, Paul would be disqualifying himself by his own words here and he would be proud (whereby God would resist Him and not give him grace according to James 4:6).

Furthermore, Jesus said in John 12:48 that if any man receives not His words, those words will judge them on the last day (i.e. the Judgment). It is illogical to assume that Jesus only meant those words in John 12:48 as being during His Earthly ministry (pre-cross) only. It does not make sense for Jesus to give us new teachings, just so that they can be radically changed so quickly with His crucifiction (i.e. the official beginning of the New Covenant). Even Revelation teaches the necessity of obedience as a part of salvation.


So you cannot escape doing good or living holy as a part of God's saving grace and salvation. The two go together like bacon and eggs. Grace and Sanctification both play a part in our salvation.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 above here says that God has chosen us to salvation through:


For Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), but if we mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) via the Holy Spirit, we will live (live spiritually, i.e. eternal life).

So Paul is saying here that if we live one way, we are going to die, but if we live another way, we are going to live. Paul is speaking in spiritual terms.

CharismaticLady said:

@Guojing and @timothyu

Why did Paul have Timothy circumcised for the sake of the Jews? That has always bothered me.

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Paul telling Timothy to be circumcised was not for salvation. If this was the case, then Paul would be contradicting himself in Galatians 5:2 where he tells the Galatians that if they seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing. The Old Law is dead (Romans 7:4), and we are to serve in newness of spirit (i.e. The New Covenant writings), and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. The Torah, and or the Old Testament writings) (See: Romans 7:6).

So why did Paul tell Timothy to be circumcised?

As an evangelism tool or tactic:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" (1 Corinthians 9:20).