Closed Communion

Julian of Norwich

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I read the thread and the report. It doesn't look like dividing issues warrant exclusion from altar fellowship. But, I'm one for open communion of all baptized Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I am also.
 
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tampasteve

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I read the thread and the report. It doesn't look like dividing issues warrant exclusion from altar fellowship. But, I'm one for open communion of all baptized Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
As am I, which is one reason I stick with the ELCA.
In these Christian Forums, Old Catholics are grouped with Anglicans and I think this is most appropriate. So, at least for now, this is what the ACC is.
Correct. There are some groups that get put with others that are not quite right, but we do the best we can to sort it out. :)
 
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Andrewn

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As am I, which is one reason I stick with the ELCA.
Membership of all liberal Lutheran churches is almost double that of conservative Lutheran churches in North America. How do you explain this? BTW, I think average Sunday attendance would be a better indicator than membership. Are there statistics for this?
 
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tampasteve

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Membership of all liberal Lutheran churches is almost double that of conservative Lutheran churches in North America. How do you explain this?
It's explained mostly by history and mergers. The ELCA is a combination of several Lutheran denominations that merged in the 1980's into a new and much larger organization. The two largest were the American Lutheran Church and the Lutheran Church in America. The ALC had about 2 million members and the LCA had nearly 3 million. The much smaller AELC had about 100,000 and was interesting a church that split from the LCMS in the late 1970s.

It is not really explained by their more liberal stance on most social matters as some of these decisions shrunk the ELCA quite significantly. The most extreme example was the 2009 decision on sexuality where the ELCA lost over 700 congregations and close to 500,000 members. But on the other hand, the people that remained had a more unified vision of the direction they wanted the church to go. Further, the ELCA is more congregational than many people understand or want to believe. A church has much more decision making power on how or if to implement these liberal directions, who to hire as Pastor, etc.

BTW, I think average Sunday attendance would be a better indicator than membership.

Are there statistics for this?

The ELCA publishes statistics for each church, synod, and church wide. In my synod the average attendance is 132, which is a 5 person drop from 2016...which is only a 3.6% drop - which is not really bad compared to other areas, but still something that needs reversing. I am not sure if the LCMS/WELS/ELS publish these stats too. The ELCA is actually really open about statistics in the parishes sharing everything from finance to attendance.
 
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TKA_TN

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I read the thread and the report. It doesn't look like dividing issues warrant exclusion from altar fellowship. But, I'm one for open communion of all baptized Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I am to an extent. I personally wouldn't accept communion in a church that endorses same-sex marriage or other issues related to that. I also don't think I could accept it from a woman who has consecrated the elements (due to Scripture, not because I have anything against women).

Guess that's more a personal preference than something I feel should be mandated.
 
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Andrewn

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It is not really explained by their more liberal stance on most social matters as some of these decisions shrunk the ELCA quite significantly. The most extreme example was the 2009 decision on sexuality where the ELCA lost over 700 congregations and close to 500,000 members.
I think this kind of split couldn't happen with Anglican churches bec the denomination owns the buildings.

The ELCA publishes statistics for each church, synod, and church wide. In my synod the average attendance is 132, which is a 5 person drop from 2016...which is only a 3.6% drop - which is not really bad compared to other areas, but still something that needs reversing. I am not sure if the LCMS/WELS/ELS publish these stats too.
According to Wikipedia, ELCA has 9,163 congregations. If this is true and with average attendance of 132, the total would be 1,209,516. The data is missing but it is conceivable that LCMS may have higher Sunday attendance.
 
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Andrewn

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I personally wouldn't accept communion in a church that endorses same-sex marriage or other issues related to that. I also don't think I could accept it from a woman who has consecrated the elements
You're more conservative than me. I would probably not participate if the pastor was a practicing homosexual but would accept communion in the 2 cases you mentioned above.
 
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tampasteve

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I think this kind of split couldn't happen with Anglican churches bec the denomination owns the buildings.
Except it did happen in the Episcopal Church - and it was very messy and I believe still ongoing because of the church ownership you mentioned.

According to Wikipedia, ELCA has 9,163 congregations. If this is true and with average attendance of 132, the total would be 1,209,516. The data is missing but it is conceivable that LCMS may have higher Sunday attendance.

It's hard to extrapolate because that stat is only from my Synod. But I did find a stat on the ELCA website - and your estimate was not to far off. I guess my synod is doing ok on average. Here is the link http://download.elca.org/ELCA Resou...208.12039214.1564662877-1108990467.1563195471
Average Sunday attendance in 2015 was 973,809. I don't see a more recent stat, but it is probably down from then. 2015's membership was 3,668,034. This does not take into account visitors. For example, my wife and son and I are not members yet (the membership class is later this month) but attend weekly.
 
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Andrewn

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Average Sunday attendance in 2015 was 973,809. I don't see a more recent stat, but it is probably down from then. 2015's membership was 3,668,034. This does not take into account visitors.
Taking into account visitors, average member' attendance is like 1/4 (once-a-month). This is not encouraging, especially with the continuous drop in membership and attendance.
 
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tampasteve

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Taking into account visitors, average member' attendance is like 1/4 (once-a-month).
That is how it divides down, but more likely that there are consistent members that attend weekly and then there are far more people on the membership rolls that only attend intermittently or only on major holidays.
This is not encouraging, especially with the continuous drop in membership and attendance.

I completely agree, it is very worrisome and something I have been saying that leadership and individual synods and parishes need to address. Maybe whomever is elected Presiding Bishop will start looking at this as an issue.
 
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Andrewn

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That is how it divides down, but more likely that there are consistent members that attend weekly and then there are far more people on the membership rolls that only attend intermittently or only on major holidays.
Yes, I understand that.
 
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Nova Scotian Boy

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Any conservative Lutheran body will not be in fellowship with non-Lutheran denominations. We would require there to be the complete agreement of doctrine for Altar and Pulpit Fellowship to be declared. Which is why despite both being confessional and having a history with each other LCMS/LCC/AALC is not in fellowship with WELS/ELS because of disagreement over the doctrine of Holy Ministry.

The LCMS is currently in friendly dialogue with the Anglican Church in North America, but frankly, that is mostly dialogue. For ALtar and Pulpit Fellowship to be declared between those two the ACNA would have to defrock all their women priests, and no longer ordain women. Declare that they practice closed communion and essentially subscribe quia to the Book of Concord, that or the LCMS grossly compromise which would cause itself to implode, and fracture. That's a pretty tall order on both sides.

I'm a Vicar at an LCMS parish that takes a strong stand on closed communion. We don't see it as a judgment or hate we legitimately hold to closed communion out of a love for our neighbor and because he sincerely believes the words of 1 Corinthians 11.
 
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Andrewn

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I'm a Vicar at an LCMS parish that takes a strong stand on closed communion.
Frankly, I consider closed communion a grave sin that was practiced by the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
 
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Nova Scotian Boy

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And I consider closed communion to be a grave sin that is practiced by those protestant enthusiasts who do not believe in the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament. So at least we have in common that the other practice is in grave sin.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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It's explained mostly by history and mergers. The ELCA is a combination of several Lutheran denominations that merged in the 1980's into a new and much larger organization. The two largest were the American Lutheran Church and the Lutheran Church in America. The ALC had about 2 million members and the LCA had nearly 3 million. The much smaller AELC had about 100,000 and was interesting a church that split from the LCMS in the late 1970s

Ahhh the joys of Seminex. My childhood church was deep into that as one of the major financial players of the Preus / Otten side was a member. It was only when I started to dig into Lutheran history did I realize what had been going on at our congregation and why my parents left by the mid-80s due to the infighting.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Edit: if you are in Canada your options might be more limited. The Canadian version of the LCMS is the Lutheran Church - Canada (LCC) and they technically are almost identical to the LCMS in communion if I am correct. Outside of the LCC I am not really familiar with Canadian Lutheran churches other than the ELCIC (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada), which is not considered "conservative".
There is some variation between LCC and the LCMSS:
Partner Churches
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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This website doesn't describe the variation between LCC and LCMS.
The reason it does not is we are in full fellowship with the LCMS. We are in fellowship with some of the same Synods as the LCMS, and some different Synods than the LCMS. Why? Because both Churches sought to explore and formalize fellowship agreements with the particular Synods, and they with us. You may ask why all of these Synods don't just reciprocate with each other when it comes to fellowship; but it remains that each of these Churches is autonomous, and therefore do what is best for their Church. Often these agreements stem from one Synod assisting another synod by providing aid through Church workers; seminary training for their Clergy etc. Some of these Synods started as missions supported by another synod, and grew and became autonomous Churches; in those cases, fellowship is pretty much a given.

Theologically, they is really no difference. After our recent restructuring, there is a bit more difference regarding Governance. The in the LCMS Synod and District Presidents responsibilities are both administrative and spiritual. In LCC we have business managers, and our Synodical and District Presidents responsibilities are spiritual only; more in line with the historical office of Bishop.

The most recent for Canada is with The Mission Diocese of Finland; a conservative, confessional "free" Church with no affiliation with the State Church.
 
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Andrewn

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We are in fellowship with some of the same Synods as the LCMS, and some different Synods than the LCMS. Why? Because both Churches sought to explore and formalize fellowship agreements with the particular Synods, and they with us. You may ask why all of these Synods don't just reciprocate with each other when it comes to fellowship; but it remains that each of these Churches is autonomous, and therefore do what is best for their Church.
I get the impression that LCC is a closed club providing pastoral care for its members and is unwelcoming to other Christians.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I get the impression that LCC is is a closed club providing pastoral care for its members and is unwelcoming to other Christians.
Your lack of charity shown by calling us a "club" and "unwelcoming" is clearly an attempt to offend and antagonize; Anglicans are usually much kinder that that.

You, no doubt, would be of the same opinion, and extend the same lack of charity regarding our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters for maintaining an historic, faithful, and pastoral practice that is easily supported by Scripture; whereas certain other Churches that bend to the winds of popular opinion; secular humanism; political correctness and employ an historical-critical interpretive standard to God's Holy Word find them selves unequally yoked with others; some of whom (in the case of Anglican/Presbyterian fellowship) actually deny the real presence.
Welcoming with the absence of sound doctrine and practice is nothing more than a service club, or self help group.
 
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