IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

Oldmantook said:

Yes, but you did not directly address the text itself. In forming doctrine one cannot afford to ignore scriptures that don't happen to conform to one's beliefs as Scripture does not contradict itself. In my initial reply to you, I directly addressed each of the verses you cited and offered by explanation.

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You did so by having verse 13 interpret every other verse. That's creating a pretext.

Oldmantook said:

No, to be specific, the fruit come from the BRANCHES which are attached to the vine. We are the branches. The branches bear the fruit. Unfruitful branches are cut off FROM THE VINE and thrown into the fire and burned.

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The branches produce no fruit without the vine. That's the entire point.

Albion said:

Are you saying that my basic point about the OT verses in contrast to the NT verses seemed right to you except for Romans 8:13?

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I was addressing your statement: They include the IFs but the message is not, as most of the OT ones are, comments about do this and you will get that or if you don't do this, then you won't.
Rom 8:13 in the Greek is an example of a 1st class conditional sentence. In this sentence structure The "if" clause (protasis) is assumed to be true = living according to the flesh. Then "then" clause (apodosis) = you will die is also true.
This verse is a simple If-Then statement where Paul is stating that if it can be assumed that you are living according to the flesh, you will die. Paul cannot be referring to physical death because every person physically dies no matter what kind of life they lived. Nor can he be referring to unbelievers in this verse since unbelievers are unable to choose between living according to the flesh or living according to the Spirit as they are spiritually unregenerate. Thus unbelievers have no choice but to sin. Only believers have the choice to sin or refrain from sin.

Therefore, Rom 8:13 is a NT verse exemplifying that if you do this (live according to the flesh) you will get that (spiritual death). But if you do this (live according to the Spirit) you will get that (spiritual life). Eternal life is conditional; not unconditional. One must believe and also obey.

redleghunter said:

You did so by having verse 13 interpret every other verse. That's creating a pretext.

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Reread my initial reply. I addressed each one of your surrounding verses to demonstrate that they complement v.13 not contradict it by use of the Greek verb tenses and even another IF clause in v.17 which you also ignored.

redleghunter said:

The branches produce no fruit without the vine. That's the entire point.

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You have chosen to ignore the fact that being attached to a vine does not guarantee that a branch will produce fruit. Some branches bear fruit. Other branches don't bear fruit despite being attached. Bearing fruit while being attached to the vines is not a guaranteed outcome. Ever seen branches on a vine that don't bear fruit? I have. That is the entire point.

Oldmantook said:

You have chosen to ignore the fact that being attached to a vine does not guarantee that a branch will produce fruit.

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This is true.

Oldmantook said:

Some branches bear fruit. Other branches don't bear fruit despite being attached.

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This is true as well.

Oldmantook said:

Bearing fruit while being attached to the vines is not a guaranteed outcome.

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Judas comes to mind. The 11 the opposite is true. But the guarantor of fruit is not the branch but the Vine Christ as He said:

Oldmantook said:

Ever seen branches on a vine that don't bear fruit? I have. That is the entire point.

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And that was the point in Jesus telling the 11 they were appointed to produce fruit and keep it. Jesus could do that as the Vine which gives life to the branches.

Oldmantook said:

Reread my initial reply. I addressed each one of your surrounding verses to demonstrate that they complement v.13 not contradict it by use of the Greek verb tenses and even another IF clause in v.17 which you also ignored.

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Your interpretation of verse 13 only holds up if verse 9 is ignored:


Or are you of the belief that children of God lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and become sons of wrath once again? How often can this happen if this be your view and can you point me to the teaching in the NT which states children of God lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

redleghunter said:

This is true.


This is true as well.


Judas comes to mind. The 11 the opposite is true. But the guarantor of fruit is not the branch but the Vine Christ as He said:

John 15: NASB

15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.​

And that was the point in Jesus telling the 11 they were appointed to produce fruit and keep it. Jesus could do that as the Vine which gives life to the branches.

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I'm sure that you're quite aware that some branches bear fruit and others don't, don't you? Why else would Jesus say that those branches that do not bear fruit are cut off and thrown into the fire. Was Jesus lying?? Your response denies the plain meaning of the passage.

redleghunter said:

Your interpretation of verse 13 only holds up if verse 9 is ignored:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.​

Or are you of the belief that children of God lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and become sons of wrath once again? How often can this happen if this be your view and can you point me to the teaching in the NT which states children of God lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

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Why don't you read the book of 1 John? Do not be deceived.
7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. 1 Jn 3:7
Little children refers to believers. We have a choice whether to practice righteousness or to practice sinning which exactly mirrors Rom 8:13 to live according to the flesh or to live according to the Spirit. A child of God who makes a practice of sinning if of the devil.
Do you not understand that scripture explicitly states that Spirit is given as the down payment toward our inheritance?
Eph 1:14 The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance, which is applied toward our redemption as God’s own people, resulting in the honor of God’s glory.
A down payment can be forfeited in the same way that a house down payment can be lost if one does not continue to make the month mortgage payments. In the same way the indwelling Holy Spirit can be lost due to unrepentant disobedience in the life of the believer.

Oldmantook said:

I'm sure that you're quite aware that some branches bear fruit and others don't, don't you?

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I already answered in the affirmative.

Oldmantook said:

Why else would Jesus say that those branches that do not bear fruit are cut off and thrown into the fire.

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Yes this is correct.

Oldmantook said:

Was Jesus lying??

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It is quite awful to appeal to blasphemy when you are not proving your point well.

Oldmantook said:

Your response denies the plain meaning of the passage

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Not at all. I affirmed there are branches which do not produce fruit. I affirmed that those branches are thrown into the fire.

What you ignored by my statements is the fruit producing branches cannot produce fruit without the vine. Jesus says so when He says:


There is absolutely no chance of any branch to produce fruit without the Vine.

You also did not provide evidence that fruit producing branches somehow end up being non producing branches. Jesus clearly said "that does not produce fruit." That means nothing--not any-- at all.

Then Jesus tells the 11 the following:

“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."

Bearing much fruit is proof of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Which is why He says:

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

There were plenty of branches which attached themselves to Christ during His First Advent. People like Judas who had other motives, the people who were fed by Jesus who were after a full belly. However, those contrasted who were in Christ produced fruit.

Oldmantook said:

Why don't you read the book of 1 John? Do not be deceived.
7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. 1 Jn 3:7
Little children refers to believers. We have a choice whether to practice righteousness or to practice sinning which exactly mirrors Rom 8:13 to live according to the flesh or to live according to the Spirit. A child of God who makes a practice of sinning if of the devil.
Do you not understand that scripture explicitly states that Spirit is given as the down payment toward our inheritance?
Eph 1:14 The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance, which is applied toward our redemption as God’s own people, resulting in the honor of God’s glory.
A down payment can be forfeited in the same way that a house down payment can be lost if one does not continue to make the month mortgage payments. In the same way the indwelling Holy Spirit can be lost due to unrepentant disobedience in the life of the believer.

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The theme in 1 John is no different than in the Pauline epistles. There are two contrasting natures one leading to eternal life and one to damnation. What any of what you post fails to prove is that one goes from a sealed child of God back to a son of perdition. You can't come up with the passage, verse nor any Apostolic teaching which confirms your preconception within the proper context of the text. Instead you have to hopscotch all over the Bible isolating verses to fit your preconception.

Oldmantook said:

Eph 1:14 The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance, which is applied toward our redemption as God’s own people, resulting in the honor of God’s glory.
A down payment can be forfeited in the same way that a house down payment can be lost if one does not continue to make the month mortgage payments. In the same way the indwelling Holy Spirit can be lost due to unrepentant disobedience in the life of the believer.

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So it is your view 'we' make the pledge or down payment? Thus responsible for the payments? Or is the down payment or pledge made by God as Paul clearly states:

Ephesians 1: NASB

In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So again who is the pledge made to? God or us? Is it not the inheritance ours and God's own possession? Does not the end of verse 10 and verse 11 say 'we have obtained an inheritance? And then that stickler of a word Predestination shows up again according to His purpose.

How much more of this are you going to manipulate? You just tried to make God's own down payment, His Pledge to us and make it our pledge. There is absolutely nothing in that text which says we are responsible for any payments.

In the same way the indwelling Holy Spirit can be lost due to unrepentant disobedience in the life of the believer.

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That seems to be your conditional hypothetical which none of the Scriptures support.

Oldmantook said:

Rom 8:13 in the Greek is an example of a 1st class conditional sentence. In this sentence structure The "if" clause (protasis) is assumed to be true = living according to the flesh. Then "then" clause (apodosis) = you will die is also true.

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Yes, except that it reads like a statement of fact rather than a warning about the consequences of making a poor choice.

If so, and if Romans 8:13 is the only one of the many verses you referred us to which didn't fit with my "take" on the matter...that's not so bad, is it?

redleghunter said:

I already answered in the affirmative.

Yes this is correct.

It is quite awful to appeal to blasphemy when you are not proving your point well.



Not at all. I affirmed there are branches which do not produce fruit. I affirmed that those branches are thrown into the fire.

What you ignored by my statements is the fruit producing branches cannot produce fruit without the vine. Jesus says so when He says:

As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. ​

There is absolutely no chance of any branch to produce fruit without the Vine.

You also did not provide evidence that fruit producing branches somehow end up being non producing branches. Jesus clearly said "that does not produce fruit." That means nothing--not any-- at all.

Then Jesus tells the 11 the following:

“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."

Bearing much fruit is proof of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Which is why He says:

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

There were plenty of branches which attached themselves to Christ during His First Advent. People like Judas who had other motives, the people who were fed by Jesus who were after a full belly. However, those contrasted who were in Christ produced fruit.

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Your argument is irrelevant as there is no question that the production of fruit ultimately comes from the vine. I never stated that the branches produce fruit apart from the vine as that is ridiculous both in the physical and spiritual worlds. I also never claimed that fruit producing branches can end up being non-producing branches as your attribution is without basis. The fact is non-fruitful branches for whatever reason, are cut off and thrown into the fire. Only believers can be branches as non-believers are never attached to the vine. Believers can either produce fruit or not produce fruit each with its attendant consequences.

redleghunter said:

The theme in 1 John is no different than in the Pauline epistles. There are two contrasting natures one leading to eternal life and one to damnation. What any of what you post fails to prove is that one goes from a sealed child of God back to a son of perdition. You can't come up with the passage, verse nor any Apostolic teaching which confirms your preconception within the proper context of the text. Instead you have to hopscotch all over the Bible isolating verses to fit your preconception.

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Again you failed to address the text directly. Why is that? A believer is of the devil if he/she makes a practice of sin. 1 John 3:8 Ignore it if you will.

redleghunter said:

So it is your view 'we' make the pledge or down payment? Thus responsible for the payments? Or is the down payment or pledge made by God as Paul clearly states:

Ephesians 1: NASB

In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So again who is the pledge made to? God or us? Is it not the inheritance ours and God's own possession? Does not the end of verse 10 and verse 11 say 'we have obtained an inheritance? And then that stickler of a word Predestination shows up again according to His purpose.

How much more of this are you going to manipulate? You just tried to make God's own down payment, His Pledge to us and make it our pledge. There is absolutely nothing in that text which says we are responsible for any payments.



That seems to be your conditional hypothetical which none of the Scriptures support.

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The Holy Spirit is given to us a pledge of our inheritance. God is faithful in what he pledges. However that pledge is conditioned based upon our continued obedience to Him. Humans/believers have the choice to be faithful or unfaithful and can disobey and wander from the truth and if not repented of incur spiritual death.
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. Js 5:19-20
According to your belief, a genuine believer is sealed, cannot lose the Holy Spirit and cannot lose eternal life. These verses in James proves you wrong as a wandering brother is called a sinner and faces the death of his soul if another does not turn him back to the truth.

Albion said:

Yes, except that it reads like a statement of fact rather than a warning about the consequences of making a poor choice.

If so, and if Romans 8:13 is the only one of the many verses you referred us to which didn't fit with my "take" on the matter...that's not so bad, is it?

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Hmm....don't know about that. Warnings are facts. If they were not facts concerning the consequences regarding doing something or not doing something then why warn in the first place? That would be nonsensical. Warnings are not hypotheses but based on reality, in this case the spiritual reality that the believer who is living according to the flesh face the prospect of spiritual death unless he repents and starts to live according to the Spirit.

Some warnings have minor consequence while other warnings have major consequences. Paul's statement "concerning the consequence of making a poor choice" have the ultimate consequence of spiritual death. Not something that anyone should ignore or minimize.

Oldmantook said:

Again you failed to address the text directly. Why is that? A believer is of the devil if he/she makes a practice of sin. 1 John 3:8 Ignore it if you will.

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I’ve addressed the text several times. Each time you change the text.

Oldmantook said:

The Holy Spirit is given to us a pledge of our inheritance. God is faithful in what he pledges. However that pledge is conditioned based upon our continued obedience to Him. Humans/believers have the choice to be faithful or unfaithful and can disobey and wander from the truth and if not repented of incur spiritual death.
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. Js 5:19-20
According to your belief, a genuine believer is sealed, cannot lose the Holy Spirit and cannot lose eternal life. These verses in James proves you wrong as a wandering brother is called a sinner and faces the death of his soul if another does not turn him back to the truth.

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The text of Ephesians 1 does not set conditions and why you add to the text.

redleghunter said:

The text of Ephesians 1 does not set conditions and why you add to the text.

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Yahuweh set conditions, being ignored by most people,
and Ephesians and every other Scripture agrees fully and in perfect harmony,
without any contradiction.