Some questions about eternal/conditional security

bornagain98 said:

I have been running into trouble understanding this topic. There are some Bible verses that seem to really spell out eternal security, while some seem to spell out conditional security. I'm just going to compare Scriptures here and ask some questions

Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

This seems like God will continue to work in you. Some people say these verses are only for those who meet the requirements and don't committ certain sins (idolatry, sexual immorality, etc) but you'd wonder if God was going to continue to work in you, would you really want to committ those sins?

Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

So if salvation is a gift of God, it couldn't be revoked, right?

This also makes me wonder if people who want to turn back to sin or stop believing weren't truly saved in the first place:

1 John 3:6 Those who live in Christ don’t go on sinning. Those who go on sinning haven’t seen or known Christ.

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.”

Then there are the verses that seem like someone could lose their salvation

Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.

So there's that 'IF" we endure part.
There's also the tons of "ifs" in other passages but I won't post them all.

Then there are the warnings in Revelations of God telling the churches to repent.

So if eternal security is true, how do you explain the other verses? If conditional security is true how do you explain the verses at the top of the post? I'm just trying to understand.

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Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.

bornagain98 said:

I have been running into trouble understanding this topic

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27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

This is a subject that goes round and round and round.
We do not have to understand it. There is no test or exam on your understanding of Christian theology.

All you are required is to, having accepted him, is to show that you love him by how you live.

bornagain98 said:

So if eternal security is true, how do you explain the other verses?
If conditional security is true how do you explain the verses at the top of the post?
I'm just trying to understand.

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I'm very impressed with your being OPEN to what the Truth really is.

One thing that should help you is ...
Most have not reconciled ALL of the NT verses re: eternal security
because they reject the verses which state that a church member
can receive eternal death because he/she chooses ...
to be a slave of sin
to be involved in habitual sin
to live in the flesh
to not obey Jesus' commandments
to not practice righteousness
to not work at living a holy life
to draw back to perdition
to return and also follow the Law
to not endure in the faith
to not endure persecution
to not refuse the mark of the beast
How many good ones have I missed?

To be continued, if you are still interested ...

bornagain98 said:

Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.

So there's that 'IF" we endure part.
There's also the tons of "ifs" in other passages but I won't post them all.

Then there are the warnings in Revelations of God telling the churches to repent.

So if eternal security is true, how do you explain the other verses? If conditional security is true how do you explain the verses at the top of the post? I'm just trying to understand.

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Hebrews 6:4-6 is explained in verse 7-9. Usually, people stop at those verses without continuing the flow of the context.

In Galatians, Paul is using literary device in his language to a group of believers as if they had fallen from something they assumed they had. You say you were justified in Christ, but by your own works it is as if you had fallen from grace!

The "If" in the call for endurance is speaking about the ones who stay faithful. If you endure, you prove yourself one of my elect.

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have given it away (satan wants it).

Jonaitis said:

The "If" in the call for endurance is speaking about the ones who stay faithful.
If you endure, you prove yourself one of my elect.

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Yes, there are MANY NT verses that warn ...
Those BACs who endure in their faith until death will be saved!
Now, enduring in the faith encompasses quite a lot of things!

bornagain98 said:

I have been running into trouble understanding this topic. There are some Bible verses that seem to really spell out eternal security, while some seem to spell out conditional security. I'm just going to compare Scriptures here and ask some questions

Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

This seems like God will continue to work in you. Some people say these verses are only for those who meet the requirements and don't committ certain sins (idolatry, sexual immorality, etc) but you'd wonder if God was going to continue to work in you, would you really want to committ those sins?

Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

So if salvation is a gift of God, it couldn't be revoked, right?

This also makes me wonder if people who want to turn back to sin or stop believing weren't truly saved in the first place:

1 John 3:6 Those who live in Christ don’t go on sinning. Those who go on sinning haven’t seen or known Christ.

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.”

Then there are the verses that seem like someone could lose their salvation

Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.

So there's that 'IF" we endure part.
There's also the tons of "ifs" in other passages but I won't post them all.

Then there are the warnings in Revelations of God telling the churches to repent.

So if eternal security is true, how do you explain the other verses? If conditional security is true how do you explain the verses at the top of the post? I'm just trying to understand.

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Historically, there has been great debate among Christians as to whether a believer is secure in their salvation after having received it, or whether their salvation can be lost or forfeited due to sin or the renouncing of one’s faith. Although there are opposing viewpoints on the topic, each with compelling arguments and strong scriptural support, the answer to the question really hinges upon these factors: how salvation is imparted, upon what basis it must be received, and what element must be present for it to be sustained.

Salvation is a free gift of God that is imputed to (and received by) an individual on the basis of faith alone in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ upon the cross. God never forces salvation upon anyone, but neither is it imputed automatically to someone without their personal repentance and faith in Christ. Therefore, salvation is a choice, both on the part of God, and of sinful man.

From the very beginning, God chose to save sinners because of His great love for them. Because God is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9b), and because He “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4), He has accomplished and provided everything that is necessary for their salvation in every aspect, including revealing Himself through creation and conscience, drawing each person to Himself by the Holy Spirit, sending His own Son to pay their sin penalty so they could be forgiven and saved, and providing even the faith necessary for them to believe. God is always ready to impart His saving grace to those who would come to Him in genuine, sincere faith. However, man must also take part in the equation because he has been given free will. He can only receive God’s gift of grace by choosing to turn away from his life of sin (Matthew 16:24) and personally placing his faith in Jesus for forgiveness and redemption (John 3:16). That final step on the part of sinners is, in essence, what completes the salvation transaction. Aside from grace through faith, salvation cannot be obtained through any other means; nor is there any other Savior but Jesus Christ Himself (Acts 4:12).

Because it is impossible for any of us to see into the heart of a person in order to know whether or not they actually possess genuine saving faith, the basic point of debate on this topic really boils down to this: could a person who claimed to be a believer and who exhibited good works over a long period of time ever have possessed genuine saving faith, if they ultimately ended up renouncing their faith later on?

Supporters of the “eternally secure” position argue that such a person never possessed saving faith, but simply offered lip service and modified their external behavior accordingly. They believe that genuine salvation cannot be altered or undone once it is received, since God is the one who keeps a person’s faith intact. Furthermore, they conclude that any verses in Scripture which appear to support the idea that genuine salvation can be abandoned actually refer to people who never “actually” possessed saving faith to begin with.

Supporters of the “not eternally secure” position argue that such a person could possess genuine saving faith at one point (as evidenced by good works, among other proofs) but then willfully choose to reject or deny Jesus later on, forfeiting their salvation. They also argue that all verses supporting “eternal security” are referring to Christians who continue believing and never stop.

Supporters of both views seem to agree on the issue of sin itself within the lives of those who profess to be believers. Both positions assert that when a professing believer sins or even struggles with a particular sin, they do not “lose” their salvation but have merely broken fellowship with God and need to confess their sins to Him in order to have that intimate fellowship restored. On the other hand, if a professing believer habitually and continually practices sin, treating the grace of God as a license to do so, they likely do not possess genuine, saving faith.

Regardless of which position one leans toward when it comes to the security of the believer, the fact remains that personal faith in Christ is a mandatory prerequisite for sinners to receive God’s salvation, and it remains the mode by which God’s salvation is retained or sustained. Whether or not one’s personal faith can ever truly be altered, rescinded or renounced by a genuine believer is really the “uncertainty factor” in the whole equation; and because we do not have viewing-access to the Book of Life, or a current glimpse into heaven or Hades to see who is actually there, we will never know the answer to this uncertainty factor on this side of eternity.

Kris Jordan said:

Whether or not one’s personal faith can ever truly be altered, rescinded or renounced
by a genuine believer is really the “uncertainty factor” in the whole equation;
and because we do not have viewing-access to the Book of Life,
or a current glimpse into heaven or Hades to see who is actually there,
we will never know the answer to this uncertainty factor on this side of eternity.

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This an excellent synopsis of the whole issue re: eternal security.

However, if one falls away and never returns before his death, he is lost, IMO.