How To Find The Truth About God?

cvanwey · Aug 1, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Missed the truth though. ....
.... "adhered to religion" in the United States is deceptive. Like I said, tell a lie often enough, and most people will believe it.

Find truth, and few know it, few receive it, and instead, like you do, people attack those who love truth.

Make a generalized assertion, and be ready for a response

Ultimately, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm stating that it seems bazaar that 'wisdom' appears to hinge upon belief. Something in which humans cannot control.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2019

cvanwey said:
I agree that the Bible states this. But what about all the ones whom studied such assertions, and are not convinced?

Again, pretending to believe would not fool God.

Yahuweh says they are without excuse - thus judged for their sin instead of forgiven and they perish.

Scripture reveals they did not search for the truth, so again, they are without excuse.

"Studying assertions" , without seeking the truth, remains in the dark, dead in sin.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2019

cvanwey said:
Belief is the catalyst, via the Bible. Humans cannot control what they believe. For me to instead assert that I do believe anyways, would be a lie, and God would know this...

cvanwey said:
I'm not attacking anyone. I'm stating that it seems bazaar that 'wisdom' appears to hinge upon belief. Something in which humans cannot control.

"Choose TODAY whom you will serve". Easy-peasy. HUMAN CHOICE. HUMAN CONTROL.

When someone is drowning in a river, and cry desperately for someone to save them, that is NOT PRETENDING....

Wisdom begins with fear of Yahuweh. Life is empty and lost without Him. People are drowning in their lives because of sin and wickedness and deception every day. A few cry out to Yahuweh or Yahushua (Jesus) and He Saves them.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2019

gospels said:
Then you cannot discern the truth.

"You" according to all Scripture is basically everyone in the world who loves the world, in the natural mind, unregenerate .....

yes, they cannot discern the truth about anything spiritual..... (maybe anything at all?)

cvanwey · Aug 1, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Choose TODAY whom you will serve". Easy-peasy. HUMAN CHOICE. HUMAN CONTROL.

When someone is drowning in a river, and cry desperately for someone to save them, that is NOT PRETENDING....

Wisdom begins with fear of Yahuweh. Life is empty and lost without Him. People are drowning in their lives because of sin and wickedness and deception every day. A few cry out to Yahuweh or Yahushua (Jesus) and He Saves them.

Why is when ever you intervene, all your responses become sermons and preaching? You have not addressed my concerns. That belief is not a choice, with an example...

Again, MAKE yourself believe the earth is flat, if that is not what you currently believe. Then ask yourself, if there exists millions/billions, whom do not believe in the God of Christianity, even after earnest study, does 'wisdom' appear to be instead sending them to hell?

GospelS · Aug 1, 2019

@cvanwey

cvanwey said:
(i.e.) When comparing actual falsifiable claims from Genesis with human discovery, where evidence based discovery does not seem to match that of the Bible's claim(s)? Then what?

No (will never be) human discovery can ever match/compare to the claims from Genesis because humans do not have any capacity to discover with an evidence such claims. The option left is to accept this limited capacity of humanity and simply accept what God told us because He alone knows everything from the beginning. This is where you become accountable that you do not have the abilities to explain everything from the beginning and neither did you simply choose to trust God over your own assertions.

cvanwey said:
(i.e.) When comparing 'Jesus's' endorsed 'wisdom' of inequality of women in authority and undefined enslavement of humans in the NT?

Jesus brought about greater care, respect, and strength for women than anyone has ever did. You do not understand the make up of a woman's mind as Jesus does. Taking care of not exposing women to a certain level of authority is only safe guarding women and valuing them with greater worth as precious as pearls covered by a protective shell. A king's role differ from a queen's. This is a plain truth. Both have their own place of authority. Would you want a situation where both, a king and a queen play the same role of a king and create conflict and chaos? or would you want a situation where both of them fight with each other over authority?. I would not want a king to take a queen place or vise-versa.

And regarding undefined enslavement of humans, it is in fact Christ who became a perfect servant to save us from our utter ruin. If He being holy became a servant to save me, what more worth am I than Him. I owe my life to Him and can never repay Him. I would gladly want to be ever grateful to Him and take Him as my master.

Nihilist Virus · Aug 1, 2019

gospels said:
@Nihilist Virus

Some laws are meant for a time until the arrival of Messiah and does not necessitate certain laws to be followed because God took care of shielding us from the power of His Holiness and very presence, by concealing Himself in flesh.

Messiah was already put to death for all the violations committed against the law. The foreshadow of the law, Messiah has already come. So we no longer put anyone to death since we see Messiah taking their sin upon Himself having died in their place.

A person can pay his charges against the law by counting on Messiah and by receiving Him before God and before men to enter God's presence.

Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

Is all fulfilled already? Many Christians say that Jesus has more yet to fulfill, which requires a second coming.

If they're right, then all is not yet fulfilled, so the law is in full effect right now and you're in error.

Do you agree that you're in error, or are you correct and are they in error?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all is fulfilled.
Is all fulfilled already? Many Christians say that Jesus has more yet to fulfill, which requires a second coming.
If they're right, then all is not yet fulfilled, so the law is in full effect right now and you're in error.
Do you agree that you're in error, or are you correct and are they in error?

They and you are in error.

cvanwey · Aug 1, 2019

gospels said:
@cvanwey
No (will never be) human discovery can ever match/compare to the claims from Genesis because humans do not have any capacity to discover with an evidence such claims. The option left is to accept this limited capacity of humanity and simply accept what God told us because He alone knows everything from the beginning. This is where you become accountable that you do not have the abilities to explain everything from the beginning and neither did you simply choose to trust God over your own assertions.

How can God hold humans accountable, in any capacity, if, like you state, 'humans do not have any capacity to discover with any evidence such claims?'

Furthermore, if human minds are this flawed, how do you know your assessment is indeed correct, and it is instead you whom is mistaken about such assertions?

gospels said:
Jesus brought about greater care, respect, and strength for women than anyone has ever did. You do not understand the make up of a woman's mind as Jesus does. Taking care of not exposing women to a certain level of authority is only safe guarding women and valuing them with greater worth as precious as pearls covered by a protective shell. A king's role differ from a queen's. This is a plain truth. Both have their own place of authority. Would you want a situation where both, a king and a queen play the same role of a king and create conflict and chaos? or would you want a situation where both of them fight with each other over authority?. I would not want a king to take a queen place or vise-versa.

[I]"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."[/I]
[COLOR=#0000ff]
If truth is forever, and Jesus endorses the above assertion from the NT, then such 'law' stands forever... Or, at least, until the 'rapture.'

What is it that I'm not understanding exactly?

Seems more likely whomever wrote such a passage was simply reinforcing the normative thoughts and behaviors of the era; without any true just cause to assert as such.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE="gospels, post: 74172454, member: 400717"]And regarding undefined enslavement of humans, it is in fact Christ who became a perfect servant to save us from our utter ruin. If He being holy became a servant to save me, what more worth am I than Him. I owe my life to Him and can never repay Him. I would gladly want to be ever grateful to Him and take Him as my master.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=#0000ff]Cloning yourself, while you also still reign in heaven, only to have your clone end up residing right back in His original location a few decades later, hardly sounds like an ultimate sacrifice...

In such a case, God is the rule maker. God has/had the power to do whatever He wishes. Such a concept, comprised by Yahweh, demonstrates a compulsory proposition. Meaning, if you do not believe in this claimed set of events, you will fry. Again, belief is the catalyst. And humans cannot control what they believe, whether it is true or false...

Asking humans to believe in an anecdotal story, or to instead burn forever, sounds like coercion or an ultimatum. [/COLOR]

Silmarien · Aug 1, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
I understand a bit how that works. You attend Bible studies and you allow for the sake of discussion that Jesus is real and really here. You keep attending and you keep allowing. Eventually, allowing comes naturally ... one need not even think about it. You start talking about the Trinity and its inner workings as if you know. Then you are no longer allowing but believing--you think you know; you describe it as knowing.

But I was part of this culture for 44 years. I really, really believed. Eventually, I wanted to know whether it corresponded to reality and how I could tell and examine for myself.

I think, for me, I would find it nearly impossible to fake-it-till-I-make-it. I know this process. It would take a long, long time to fool myself. And that, in the end, is the crux. Why would I want to fool myself? Why would I want to give up my epistemology? Why would I want Christianity, if anything? I know (using the word advisedly) that it is a muddled mess.

I care about knowing things are true and have no interest in believing that they are true.

Oh, I'm not saying that you should. I'm just saying that you can. There is choice involved. For instance, you chose to more closely examine your former beliefs--that wasn't passively being unconvinced by truth claims. It started with a choice.

I don't think we can choose to believe things that we actively think are impossible, which is obviously your current situation with Christianity, but thinking that something is possible is a much lower hurdle for belief than being convinced that it's true. So if Christianity became a live possibility for you, and for whatever reason you wanted to pursue it, you could. Being utterly convinced is unnecessary.

That is all.

I just don't like the "Belief is not a choice; I couldn't believe even if I wanted to" spiel, because it's soundly refuted by the Pascalian approach.

GospelS · Aug 1, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

Is all fulfilled already? Many Christians say that Jesus has more yet to fulfill, which requires a second coming.

If they're right, then all is not yet fulfilled, so the law is in full effect right now and you're in error.

Do you agree that you're in error, or are you correct and are they in error?

When did I say even say that all has been fulfilled? Law is ongoing because heaven and earth are still here. How am I in error if law is in full effect right now? Obviously you do not understand the purpose and meaning of the law. Have I not told you that I keep the law. If foreshadow of law Messiah has come, then law is in greater effect. For example: The law for homosexuality is still in effect. We should not commit homosexuality. Messiah has been put to of death on behalf of the homosexuals who want to enter the presence of God. If anyone doesn’t receive the price paid by Messiah in their lifetime, then indeed that person will get everlasting death.

Nihilist Virus · Aug 1, 2019

gospels said:
When did I say even say that all has been fulfilled? Law is ongoing because heaven and earth are still here. How am I in error if law is in full effect right now? Obviously you do not understand the purpose and meaning of the law. Have I not told you that I keep the law. If foreshadow of law Messiah has come, then law is in greater effect. For example: The law for homosexuality is still in effect. We should not commit homosexuality. Messiah has been put to of death on behalf of the homosexuals who want to enter the presence of God. If anyone doesn’t receive the price paid by Messiah in their lifetime, then indeed that person will get everlasting death.

You didn't read what I said.

Also, the law cannot be separated from its punishment.

Lastly, you are dodging issues like you said you wouldn't. I have no idea if eating shellfish is a morally bad thing or not in your world view. You're adding zero clarity.

GospelS · Aug 1, 2019

cvanwey said:
How can God hold humans accountable, in any capacity, if, like you state, 'humans do not have any capacity to discover with any evidence such claims?'

I have already answered that: Humans are accountable because they neither have capacity nor they humbled themselves and willing to accept what God told them. If only you have have the humility to accept God, He Himself will take care of leading you to truth.

cvanwey said:
Furthermore, if human minds are this flawed, how do you know your assessment is indeed correct, and it is instead you whom is mistaken about such assertions?

Since humans minds are flawed, you put God's word to be true and let Him lead you to an assessment. That is how you come to a correct assessment and not be mistaken. You will know that assessment is correct because then your eyes and ears will be opened.

cvanwey said:
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

If truth is forever, and Jesus endorses the above assertion from the NT, then such 'law' stands forever... Or, at least, until the 'rapture.'

What is it that I'm not understanding exactly?

Seems more likely whomever wrote such a passage was simply reinforcing the normative thoughts and behaviors of the era; without any true just cause to assert as such.

This for given for church on how it should function. Not for the world outside church. It still is normative for a church leadership structure. Church is God's organization and He decides how it should function. Any man or woman should not have a problem with it and all are under God's authority within His church. This is not about inequality but about proper functioning of the church. Anyone who walks in the truth will know and understand how necessary and awesome it is to practice this within a church. Do you see how you misunderstood God's word without His leading?

cvanwey said:
Cloning yourself, while you also still reign in heaven, only to have your clone end up residing right back in His original location a few decades later, hardly sounds like an ultimate sacrifice...

Yeah, it hardly sounds like an ultimate sacrifice for you because you are a mere human and away from God's path. You have no understanding of God's wisdom and neither you care to accept His wisdom. Also, no understanding of perfect LOVE and how that it works yet no regard to receive it as it is presented to you.

cvanwey said:
Cloning yourself, while you also still reign in heaven, only to have your clone end up residing right back in His original location a few decades later, hardly sounds like an ultimate sacrifice...

In such a case, God is the rule maker. God has/had the power to do whatever He wishes. Such a concept, comprised by Yahweh, demonstrates a compulsory proposition. Meaning, if you do not believe in this claimed set of events, you will fry. Again, belief is the catalyst. And humans cannot control what they believe, whether it is true or false...

Asking humans to believe in an anecdotal story, or to instead burn forever, sounds like coercion or an ultimatum.

It is not "if you do not believe" then you will fry. People are not seeing their utter ruin in which they are already living. We ourselves have already fallen into the hell fire overtaken by our sins and looking for God to rescue us.

If humans have no capacity and cannot control what they believe, then this is what they must do all their life, humble themselves and keep saying "God, i have no capacity to discern nor control over what i believe. If you are real, then would you please have mercy on me and lead me to yourself so that i may know you, understand all this and believe". If you genuinely do this, then it is upon God and He is faithful and wont hold you accountable since you already kept asking God for His help all your life.

I hope you do that. Thank you for discussing.

GospelS · Aug 1, 2019

@Nihilist Virus

Nihilist Virus said:
Also, the law cannot be separated from its punishment.

Do you not know all the apostles and martyrs who died and Christians still being killed and persecuted everyday? Does it not seem like a punishment for you? It is same for all. Messiah died for us and we die for Him. I wish you understand the nature and purpose of the law.

Nihilist Virus said:
Lastly, you are dodging issues like you said you wouldn't. I have no idea if eating shellfish is a morally bad thing or not in your world view. You're adding zero clarity.

Eating shellfish is not a moral law. It is a ceremonial law. Ceremonies have their time and fulfillment. Some ceremonies have been completed and we do what the current ceremony requires for its fulfillment until the heaven and earth passes.

Nihilist Virus · Aug 2, 2019

gospels said:
@Nihilist Virus

Do you not know all the apostles and martyrs who died and Christians still being killed and persecuted?

No Christian today is being persecuted. If you go into China, for example, and break their laws with your religion, that's not persecution.

Or... would you fight for a Muslim who is "persecuted" in China? I doubt it.

Don't break the law, and you won't be persecuted! If the law is unfair in your opinion, go through the proper channels! Black market bibles are illegal, so handle your business the correct way.

Does it not seem like a punishment for you?

Except I was talking about Biblical law and Biblical punishment. Way to derail the point. Is that how wisdom works?

It is same for all. Messiah died for us and we die for Him. I wish you understand the nature and purpose of the law.

If you could merely explain it better, that would help!

Eating shellfish is not a moral law. It is a ceremonial law.

How do you know this? Is there some obvious way I can determine which laws are moral and which are ceremonial? No such distinction is made in the Bible that I'm aware of.

Ceremonies have their time and fulfillment. Some ceremonies have been completed and we do what the current ceremony requires for its fulfillment until the heaven and earth passes.

Is homosexuality a ceremonial issue also? Could one be a gay Christian and not be sinning in that regard?

GospelS · Aug 2, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
No Christian today is being persecuted. If you go into China, for example, and break their laws with your religion, that's not persecution.

Or... would you fight for a Muslim who is "persecuted" in China? I doubt it.

Don't break the law, and you won't be persecuted! If the law is unfair in your opinion, go through the proper channels! Black market bibles are illegal, so handle your business the correct way.

Except I was talking about Biblical law and Biblical punishment. Way to derail the point. Is that how wisdom works?

If you could merely explain it better, that would help!

Law and punishment are not separated. Our life is exchanged with the life of Messiah. He died in my place. I accept His life for mine and live for Him. God provided and accepted this. Redemption is one aspect of the nature and purpose of the law for its fulfillment.

Nihilist Virus said:
How do you know this? Is there some obvious way I can determine which laws are moral and which are ceremonial? No such distinction is made in the Bible that I'm aware of.

Yes. There is obvious distinction made in the bible. People were told how to remain clean or clean themselves before they can enter the temple and presence of the Holy God. They shall stay away or put away from the God's camp if they eat. It was given what makes them unclean and to abstain from those things and how to clean themselves if they eat.

Nihilist Virus said:
Is homosexuality a ceremonial issue also? Could one be a gay Christian and not be sinning in that regard?

No, its not ceremonial. So no gay Christianity.

Nihilist Virus · Aug 2, 2019

gospels said:
Law and punishment are not separated. Our life is exchanged with the life of Messiah. He died in my place. I accept His life for mine and live for Him. God provided and accepted this. Redemption is one aspect of the nature and purpose of the law for its fulfillment.

This does not address anything I asked in the portion you quoted.

Yes. There is obvious distinction made in the bible. People were told how to remain clean or clean themselves before they can enter the temple and presence of the Holy God.

Where is the distinction made obvious? The same word for "abomination" is used for both shellfish and homosexuality. You said earlier that shellfish are banned for ceremonial reasons, but you say below that homosexuality is not a ceremonial issue (and hence is somehow a moral issue, which you fail to explain). Since the same Hebrew word is used in the same way, the distinction is far from obvious. It's not obvious to me why homosexuality is immoral.

They shall stay away or put away from the God's camp if they eat. It was given what makes them unclean and to abstain from those things and how to clean themselves if they eat.

But those people aren't even participating in rituals, so what's it matter? If you're so wise, you should do a better job imparting your wisdom and making it clear. Because this is very confusing.

No, its not ceremonial. So no gay Christianity.

I asked how you know what is or isn't ceremonial. It's not satisfactory to simply assert one way or another. In a thread emphasizing wisdom, you're doing the equivalent of giving a man a fish when he's been asking you to teach him how to fish for himself.

GospelS · Aug 2, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
This does not address anything I asked in the portion you quoted.

What you said is that i'm derailing the point from biblical law and biblical punishment. So i came back to that point and explained how the law is not separated from the punishment.

Nihilist Virus said:
Where is the distinction made obvious? The same word for "abomination" is used for both shellfish and homosexuality. You said earlier that shellfish are banned for ceremonial reasons, but you say below that homosexuality is not a ceremonial issue (and hence is somehow a moral issue, which you fail to explain). Since the same Hebrew word is used in the same way, the distinction is far from obvious. It's not obvious to me why homosexuality is immoral.

Nihilist Virus said:
I asked how you know what is or isn't ceremonial. It's not satisfactory to simply assert one way or another. In a thread emphasizing wisdom, you're doing the equivalent of giving a man a fish when he's been asking you to teach him how to fish for himself.

Ceremonial laws make a distinction between what is clean and unclean outside and that which we put inside our body. You know homosexuality is immoral because it comes from within a human body/mind/soul.

Nihilist Virus said:
But those people aren't even participating in rituals, so what's it matter?

The matter is that they are living in the God's camp. Doing unclean things inside the camp makes the camp unclean. Like a drop of dirt inside your water would pollute and make all water unclean. So, all people shall maintain ritual cleanliness and purify themselves to live inside the God's camp keeping it clean for rituals to be performed.

Freodin · Aug 2, 2019

gospels said:
We are finite beings and we need the help of God's wisdom to discern that which is infinite.

Then why are you people so completely lacking in discerning that which is infinite?

GospelS · Aug 2, 2019

Freodin said:
Then why are you people so completely lacking in discerning that which is infinite?

God shows Himself to be real and we can only know that which God reveals to us about Himself.

How To Find The Truth About God?

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