IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

Hi all, just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines what we do and making salvation condtional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?

Blessings

Jonaitis · Aug 1, 2019

Salvation was conditional on the part of the Lord Jesus, we reap the benefits of his work.

Albion · Aug 1, 2019

Notice that the OT quotes/verses generally carry out your thesis but,by and large, the NT ones do not.

They include the IFs but the message is not, as most of the OT ones are, comments about do this and you will get that or if you don't do this, then you won't.

This is not surprising in that,in the OT,man was stuck with keeping the Law, but as no one can be successful at that, a Savior was sent so that we are no longer dependent upon earning our way to salvation.

eleos1954 · Aug 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Salvation was conditional on the part of the Lord Jesus, we reap the benefits of his work.

was or is?

CharismaticLady · Aug 1, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

Hi all, just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines what we do and making salvation condtional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

“IF” SHOWS SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON BOTH BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?

Blessings

I agree and even did a post years ago named "IF"

Jonaitis · Aug 1, 2019

eleos1954 said:
was or is?

The New Covenant could not be established unless those conditions were met and finished. Jesus already completed those terms (obedience under the law and suffering on behalf of sinners). In heaven, he is interceding for us in the blood of the covenant he has inaugurated, and we are continually enjoying those blessings in him. He already earned righteousness for his perfect obedience in his life and death, and through his resurrection we are justified by faith.

Yes, 'was.'

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Salvation was conditional on the part of the Lord Jesus, we reap the benefits of his work.

According to the scriptures, salvation is conditional to us believing and following God's Word. The devils BELIEVE but will not be saved because they did not follow God's Word *JAMES 2:18-20; 22. According to God's Word, there will also be many thinking they were saved but were not because they believed but did not follow *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

Jonaitis · Aug 1, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures, salvation is conditional to us believing and following God's Word.

My faith and repentance were gifts purchased by the blood of Jesus. Had he not died for our sin, had he not finished the work he was sent to do, no one would have the 'will' to return to God. All the necessary means to be received into the sonship of God was also earned, purchased, and attained through the obedience of Jesus. I credit my conversion, not to my will or smart thinking, but to the act of God's mercy and grace toward me while I was still in a state of hostility against him. He changed my heart and gave me faith to believe in order to receive it all.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

Albion said:
Notice that the OT quotes/verses generally carry out your thesis but,by and large, the NT ones do not.

They include the IFs but the message is not, as most of the OT ones are, comments about do this and you will get that or if you don't do this, then you won't.

This is not surprising in that,in the OT,man was stuck with keeping the Law, but as no one can be successful at that, a Savior was sent so that we are no longer dependent upon earning our way to salvation.

"IF is the partical word used for all the scriptures quoted and means that what is being quoted is condtional. The application in the OLD TESTAMENT is the same in the NEW with this same message of conditional salvation being carried right through both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures. If you do a prayerful topical word study on "IF" you will see this to be true. I have only posted a fraction of the scriptures as the thread would have been way too long.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
My faith and repentance were gifts purchased by the blood of Jesus. Had he not died for our sin, had he not finished the work he was sent to do, no one would have the 'will' to return to God. All the necessary means to be received into the sonship of God was also earned, purchased, and attained through the obedience of Jesus. I credit my conversion, not to my will or smart thinking, but to the act of God's mercy and grace toward me while I was still in a state of hostility against him. He changed my heart and gave me faith to believe in order to receive it all.

Thanks brother, I agree. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. As James says If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and Jesis says, if our tree has no fruit it will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Jesus also says you shall know them by their fruits *MATTHEW 7:16-20; JOHN 15:1-10

eleos1954 · Aug 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
The New Covenant could not be established unless those conditions were met and finished. Jesus already completed those terms (obedience under the law and suffering on behalf of sinners). In heaven, he is interceding for us in the blood of the covenant he has inaugurated, and we are continually enjoying those blessings in him. He already earned righteousness for his perfect obedience in his life and death, and through his resurrection we are justified by faith.

Yes, 'was.'

we are justified by faith.

and how is faith demonstrated

Gideons300 · Aug 1, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I agree and even did a post years ago named "IF"

This is bringing to a head the dilemma that is brought up by our taking seriously the IFs found in both old and new testament.

What dilemma? How about the fact our understanding of Christianity gets us initially saved, but literally is devoid of any instruction on growing in grace, growing up into Him in all things. Answers to nagging little problems like:

How are we to defeat sin?

How do we keep our bodies under?

How do we bring every thought to bow the knee to the rulership and obedience of Christ?

How do we take the way of escape God gives us when tempted rather than give in... again?

How do we walk as overcomers rather than as the overcome?

Thy harder? Avoid the computer unless your wife is in the room with you? Find an accountability partner with chains that match yours. Pray more? Find a hobby? Stop being sin conscious? .(whatever that means).

We hash over the death of Christ on the cross Sunday after Sunday, but is it not strange to us that not a soul seems to be telling us how to "go on into perfection", how to walk in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil?

Free indeed has been reduced to a reprieve of our sentence, but do we still have to occupy our prison cells of self till we die? We are told that true obedience is an unattainable goal, not a walk, and anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher, deceiving and being deceived.

God help us. Is it any wonder the church is simply going through the motions. Are we surprised that even the hungry people in the world do not want what we profess, because of what we do not possess?

But in these last days, we as His bride are being awakened to our state and given instruction as to HOW to walk in full obedience all day, every day..... and LOVE IT!

Amazing days are ahead. They cannot come soon enough.

blessings,

Gids

Jonaitis · Aug 1, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Thanks brother, I agree. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Jesus says you shall know them by their fruits *MATTHEW 7:16-20; JOHN 15:1-10

The language you use, though, sounds as if you're saying we must produce fruit to maintain our salvation. Jesus said that fruit is product of a tree, it doesn't make the tree what it is. If a tree bears apples, then it is an apple tree. If it bears pears, then it is a pear tree. The fruit show what kind of tree that it is. It would be impossible for a Christian to bear fruit completely different than its own nature. If we are compared to trees, then Christians produce works of righteousness to show what kind of people we are. Only professors of a false faith will produce fake righteousness, but their true nature will eventually show.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

eleos1954 said:
was or is?

I think this is the problem with many false teaching today. Many believe that salvation is not condtional on us believing and following God's Word. For example. JESUS says if you love me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15. Now if I go out and kill my neighbour when JESUS tells me not to am I loving God who has told me not to and my neighbore? I do not think so.

Jonaitis · Aug 1, 2019

eleos1954 said:
and how is faith demonstrated

By works (James 2).

eleos1954 · Aug 1, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
I think this is the problem with many false teaching today. Many believe that salvation is no condtional on us believing and following God's Word. For example. JESUS says if you love me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15. Now if I go out and kill my neighbour when JESUS tells me not to am I loving God who has told me not to and my neighbore? I do not think so.

Yes, and it is a demonstration/evidence of ones faith.

If one has faith ... they one will be faithful.

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
The language you use, though, sounds as if you're saying we must produce fruit to maintain our salvation. Jesus said that fruit is product of a tree, it doesn't make the tree what it is. If a tree bears apples, then it is an apple tree. If it bears pears, then it is a pear tree. The fruit show what kind of tree that it is. It would be impossible for a Christian to bear fruit completely different than its own nature. If we are compared to trees, then Christians produce works of righteousness to show what kind of people we are. Only professors of a false faith will produce fake righteousness, but their true nature will eventually show.

I have only posted the scriptures showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. These are God's Word not mine. The fruit of faith is indeed God's Work in us as we believe His Word. This is walking in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; PHILLIPPIANS 2:13; 2 PETER 1:4-5. This is the NEW COVENANT promise of a NEW HEART to believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Blessings

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I agree and even did a post years ago named "IF"

Hi CharismaticLady, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Please feel welcome to share your study here with us.

God bless

CharismaticLady · Aug 1, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi CharismaticLady, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Please feel welcome to share your study here with us.

God bless

I think you covered it very well.

BTW, you do know me. I'm 1stcenturyLady. I had computer problems and none of my forum sites recognized my login, so had to start over with a new name. And I love cats, so changed Avatars. But my new batch of baby raccoons this year are getting to know me, so I am able to walk among them.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 1, 2019

Gideons300 said:
This is bringing to a head the dilemma that is brought up by our taking seriously the IFs found in both old and new testament.

What dilemma? How about the fact our understanding of Christianity gets us initially saved, but literally is devoid of any instruction on growing in grace, growing up into Him in all things. Answers to nagging little problems like:

How are we to defeat sin?

How do we keep our bodies under?

How do we bring every thought to bow the knee to the rulership and obedience of Christ?

How do we take the way of escape God gives us when tempted rather than give in... again?

How do we walk as overcomers rather than as the overcome?

Thy harder? Avoid the computer unless your wife is in the room with you? Find an accountability partner with chains that match yours. Pray more? Find a hobby? Stop being sin conscious? .(whatever that means).

We hash over the death of Christ on the cross Sunday after Sunday, but is it not strange to us that not a soul seems to be telling us how to "go on into perfection", how to walk in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil?

Free indeed has been reduced to a reprieve of our sentence, but do we still have to occupy our prison cells of self till we die? We are told that true obedience is an unattainable goal, not a walk, and anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher, deceiving and being deceived.

God help us. Is it any wonder the church is simply going through the motions. Are we surprised that even the hungry people in the world do not want what we profess, because of what we do not possess?

But in these last days, we as His bride are being awakened to our state and given instruction as to HOW to walk in full obedience all day, every day..... and LOVE IT!

Amazing days are ahead. They cannot come soon enough.

blessings,

Gids

Hi brother Gideon, nice post. You pose a lot of interesting questions here. How do you see what is being taught in the churches today verses what God's Word actually teaches? I see the scriptures showing that God has his people in every Church but the hour is coming and now is that God is calling his people out from following man made traditions back to the Word of God.

Blessings and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

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