May 11, 2017
855
414
27
Saucier
✟52,137.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
No one wants to be murdered but many have been in the past and we are told more shall be, namely murdered for Christ and the word of God. It's a frightening thing but it's out of our control and it's not wise to put stock in a belief that certain people will be divinely protected while others who are considered deserving of the murderous fate suffer the worst horrors of the great tribulation.

Jesus is a Loving Person, and taught of Love. How are any who are lost going to survive if there aren't any Christians around?

If every Christian is going to Heaven, who remains on Earth to preach to the lost, and subsequently die as a martyr? That contradicts the scriptures.

I agree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But..... where will the Christians be for the 7 years of hell on earth?

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Why do you seem to think Christ has saved your flesh body, instead of your immortal soul?

All of the Apostles except John died as martyrs. Are you somehow better than they were?



.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,800
✟916,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus is a Loving Person, and taught of Love. How are any who are lost going to survive if there aren't any Christians around?

If every Christian is going to Heaven, who remains on Earth to preach to the lost, and subsequently die as a martyr? That contradicts the scriptures.


They believe new Christians are in the GT after the rapture however the bible does not say anything about such conversions during the GT so it's basically an invention or assumption without direct support.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,484
62
✟570,656.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
On Earth....



He was on top of the water floating in a wooden boat.




When you are in a boat you have not left the Earth.




Exactly my point, he was there.




No, they don't go to heaven. The furthest the rapture takes people is the clouds above the Earth. And Christ is taking them with him to the Earth because it is the second coming. The only purpose of the rapture is to get the saints from all over the globe to one location all together and that's with Christ not heaven. Also, Paul says the rapture is at the second coming which is after the trib has ended. All the people Paul said were "alive and remaining" is about surviving the tribulation...those trib survivors are the ones raptured. The entire point of the great trib is persecution of Christians in which a great many shall die (be overcome) as the scriptures I posted show.
So, how do 2.2 billion Christians float around in the clouds for 7 years?

Or, how do 2.2 billion Christians somehow exist on the earth while all this carnage is taking place yet they are not harmed?

Or, How long do you think it would take to behead 2.2 billion people?
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,484
62
✟570,656.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The comforting is there shall be survivors of the GT and that the dead will resurrect.
So, you are one of 2.2 billion Christians and you say to each other "well, I'm comforted by the fact that a couple of us will not get beheaded"?

Not to comforting bro....
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,484
62
✟570,656.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
It all boils down to this. "Is God a God of Love, or is he a God of Righteous Judgement?"

The answer is "He is both."

God cannot be pleased without Faith.

If he was only a God of Love, and nothing else, then yeah, a rapture is plausible.

But not every person who calls themselves Christian lives their faith.

So out of the 2.2 billion or so people you mentioned, not all of them are actually going to heaven.

My mother is a person who also believes in a rapture, but she doesn't even line up her actions with what Jesus would do. So if there was a rapture she wouldn't be in it.

To me a Rapture is a cop out from the most Faith Building Trial in History, and those that come out the other side of the Great Tribulations will have proven their faith is well more than enough to please God.
Thanks for telling us how you feel.... A "cop out"...

Sorry but to me... the rapture is a magnificent and blessed step for those who love their savior to go and be with Him and their loved ones and others who loved Christ.... while God deals with those that deny Him and get ready for the millennial age and then eternity...
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,484
62
✟570,656.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
No one wants to be murdered but many have been in the past and we are told more shall be, namely murdered for Christ and the word of God. It's a frightening thing but it's out of our control and it's not wise to put stock in a belief that certain people will be divinely protected while others who are considered deserving of the murderous fate suffer the worst horrors of the great tribulation.
Nobody wants to be murdered... but... If you are right and there is no rapture before the trib...... and the world starts to go to pieces and I am told to take the mark or die.... I'm taking the knee and letting them send me home....
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Nobody wants to be murdered... but... If you are right and there is no rapture before the trib...... and the world starts to go to pieces and I am told to take the mark or die.... I'm taking the knee and letting them send me home....

The beast and his government murders all who refuse to worship the beast or take the mark. So there are living saints of Christ on the earth at the time the mark occurs.

Revelation 17:5-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the [a]mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Revelation 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [c]continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yes, the fall in Eden was predetermined beforehand. Some translations read it differently pointing to our own predetermined destinies from the foundation of the world.
God has predetermined everything that will be before it happens.
The reason you believe at all, is through Him.
1 Peter 1
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nobody wants to be murdered... but... If you are right and there is no rapture before the trib...... and the world starts to go to pieces and I am told to take the mark or die.... I'm taking the knee and letting them send me home....

Don't worry too much about that.
It's far more likely you'll die in a car accident, or get shot in a gun accident, or get terminal cancer, or, in the most likely scenario, grow very, very old and die of an age related malady.

The "Big Government Boogey-man" isn't going to chop off your head because you won't sign up for his Visa card in this lifetime (unless maybe you live in Saudi Arabia)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nobody wants to be murdered... but... If you are right and there is no rapture before the trib...... and the world starts to go to pieces and I am told to take the mark or die.... I'm taking the knee and letting them send me home....

Make sure you take care of yourself, by eating healthy, and exercising, because you seem to be in love with your body.



.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be “rapture wimps.”
 
Upvote 0
Jul 30, 2019
5
4
55
Abbotsford, BC
✟8,558.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.
Christian Forums
For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
The idea of a righteous and Holy God who will judge the world is too much for some to bear. They worship a different Jesus than the one in the bible.
Christian Forums
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock: 25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: 27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching: 29 for he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as their scribes.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,800
✟916,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
So, how do 2.2 billion Christians float around in the clouds for 7 years?

They don't stay in the clouds very long. They follow Christ as he descends to the Earth.

Or, how do 2.2 billion Christians somehow exist on the earth while all this carnage is taking place yet they are not harmed?

Scripture says many Christians will die during that time.

Or, How long do you think it would take to behead 2.2 billion people?

There won't be that many Christians at that time due to the Apostasy.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,800
✟916,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
and the world starts to go to pieces and I am told to take the mark or die....


Scripture doesn't say you die for refusing the mark. You will die if you refuse to worship the image of the beast. Not taking the mark means you won't be allowed to buy or sell.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,776
5,642
Utah
✟719,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The following shows the origin of the doctrine.




PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

The Return of the Lord

1st Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God (powerful and noisy, no secret), and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is the first resurrection (the one and only "rapture").
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,679
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,162.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
There will be no 'rapture to heaven' of anyone in these end times, other than the two Witnesses and they are killed first.
What people like Jack fail to see; is how we are promised protection during all that must happen before Jesus Returns. Zephaniah 2:3, Joel 3:6, Psalms 60:4-5, +

I look forward to what is about to happen, because for those who stand firm in their faith thru it all, great blessings are Promised. Isaiah 30:18, Romans 8:18
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Return of the Lord

1st Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God (powerful and noisy, no secret), and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is the first resurrection (the one and only "rapture").


The word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5 connects the two chapters and reveals the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below proves the two chapters are connected.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,776
5,642
Utah
✟719,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5 connects the two chapters and reveals the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below proves the two chapters are connected.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



.

1 Thessalonians 4 ... is clear
The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again (resurrected), we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (physically died) in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain (as opposed to being physically dead) until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise (referring back to verse 13). 17After that (after the resurrection of the saved dead), we who are alive and remain (as opposed to not being alive) will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The passages undoubtedly are talking about the day the Lord returns.

Exodus 33:20

But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” (physical life)

1st John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When He returns ALL the saved will see Him ... the saved dead in the grave (resurrected), the living saved at the time (translated) ... and are able to do so because they are changed (in an instant) before they do see Him ... the rest (unsaved living) are destroyed ... because they are not changed and no one can not look on the face of God and live (unless they have been changed).

1 Corinthians 15

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the (saved) dead (in the grave) will be raised imperishable, and we (saved living) will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Return of the Lord

1st Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God (powerful and noisy, no secret), and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is the first resurrection (the one and only "rapture").


Boy, Paul sure goes through great pains to emphasize that the Living do not get caught up at the same time as the dead are raised in his teaching... it's odd how so many here oppositely teach that the two events are simultaneous.
 
Upvote 0