Faith and Obedience

Guojing · Jul 31, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Paul wrote this to the gentile brethren in Rome:
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13
I'm sure you believe that belief is required for eternal life according to Jn 3:16. Don't you also believe that obedience is also required?
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

You obey by putting your faith in Christ finished works. That is the only Obedience required for salvation

Oldmantook · Jul 31, 2019

Guojing said:
You obey by putting your faith in Christ finished works. That is the only Obedience required for salvation

So you prefer to ignore the Apostle's warnings to the brethren in Rom 8:13??

Kaon · Jul 31, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Maybe reading your own words could help answer that question best:

ISTM that you are equating your idea of "words of man" straight from the Holy Scripture with what you don't agree with (and dismissing them). You have to read in context.

I am not dismissing anything.

When I am saying "In context", especially "in the context of the entire canon being a work of man inspired by the Most High God," I mean we need to take it for what it is.

For example, if the canonical text says, "And the Lord God Said...", I can deduce with reason that it was not Paul or Peter that said what follows that. On the other hand, if I know the author of a book is a man, and the man makes no distinct mention of another entity speaking (and speaks for himself), then I can deduce that the person speaking is NOT the Most High God.

That is the context I am speaking of - specifically in relation to the Law. The Most High God Himself is the One who gives the Law, and it is explicitly outlined in part of speech in the canonical text. There is no confusing Moses with the Most High God, for example. So, with that said, where does the Most High God ever say that we can make inert, or abolish any of His Laws?

I will also take any source from Him that you find in a Gnostic text, or apocryphal text. But, don't show me what a man says and then boldly argue it is for the Most High God when He explicitly says the opposite of what [you believe] the man said.

Guojing · Jul 31, 2019

Oldmantook said:
So you prefer to ignore the Apostle's warnings to the brethren in Rom 8:13??

If you are saying Paul is contradicting himself by saying one thing in the first half of Romans and another in the 2nd half, then I would disagree with your interpretation.

If you understand Paul's epistles, the first half is on imperatives, who a Christian is in Christ, the 2nd half is indicative, because of his identity, what he should then do.

In summary, you obey because of who you already are in Christ. Obeying does not result in you being in Christ.

Wordkeeper · Jul 31, 2019

Guojing said:
If you are saying Paul is contradicting himself by saying one thing in the first half of Romans and another in the 2nd half, then I would disagree with your interpretation.

If you understand Paul's epistles, the first half is on imperatives, who a Christian is in Christ, the 2nd half is indicative, because of his identity, what he should then do.

In summary, you obey because of who you already are in Christ. Obeying does not result in you being in Christ.

John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 6
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
.
1 John 2
6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

1 John 3
24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

Guojing · Jul 31, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 6
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
.
1 John 2
6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

1 John 3
24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

As I told the other fellow, the ascended Christ instructed the Apostle Paul to tell us Gentiles how we can get saved, and its all written in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

Jesus and John were both addressed to the Jews only. Jesus was for them in ages past, John is for ages to come which is the Tribulation.

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
As I told the other fellow, the ascended Christ instructed the Apostle Paul to tell us Gentiles how we can get saved, and its all written in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

Jesus and John were both addressed to the Jews only. Jesus was for them in ages past, John is for ages to come which is the Tribulation.

If you believe the Gospels were written for the Jews only, you should understand that they were written after the Pauline Epistles. Why would the authors spend so much resources to write up obsolete instructions?

Elsewhere, Paul also teaches about works required for salvation:

Romans 2
4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
.......
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

2 Corinthians 5
1“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Messiah, so that each may receive what has been done through the body, whether good or bad”.

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Kaon said:
Did the Most High God say this, or a man? And, I mean the part of speech in the text - is it from The Lord God, or from a man?

See, I don't think Paul is actually saying what you think he is saying - as well as the other disciples and patriarchs. I know these dogmas very well because I had to break out of them. There is no where in the canonical, apocryphal or Gnostic text in which the part of speech alluding to the Most High God insinuates, or directly states that we can make any part of His Law void, inert, inoperable or abolished.

I am all ears hearing from the Most High God Himself - in the text(s) aforementioned - whether He stated we can abolish, make inert or void any of His law. And, if any man contradicts what the Most High God has already said explicitly (namely, that He doesn't renege on His promises or Law), then that person is wrong at best, and a liar in general. So, you have to decide if the Most High God is right, or if men are right.

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I heard that it says, in the rules of this forum, that teaching there are errors in the Bible is not allowed.

Kaon · Aug 1, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I heard that it says, in the rules of this forum, that teaching there are errors in the Bible is not allowed.

Inspired, but not directly commanded or said by the Most High God. This isn't blasphemy, this is contextual analysis.

Dogma has been made based on subtle confusion, misunderstandings and downright ignorance. It is perpetuated by leaders, so called leaders, and people who like myths and legends.

To say every word = the spoken Word of God is ignorant, because it ignores the fact that the bible distinguishes direct commandments, and Word (including the description of His actual image) of the Most High God, and other entities speaking.

So, where does the Most High God actually and directly say that we can disobey His Law or consider it abolished, null, and/or void. I would much rather be considered a blasphemous demon by you than to do something that someone else told me to do despite what the Father said.

Again: show where the Most High God actually gave us permission to disobey ANY of His commandments He previously set up. Otherwise we can discontinue our exchange. I am not going to listen to a human that tells me God said we can disobey or abolish His commandments when both his Son and He says otherwise - directly and identified in the canon. But, I am actually open to hearing where the Most High God said the aforementioned - directly.

Guojing · Aug 1, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
If you believe the Gospels were written for the Jews only, you should understand that they were written after the Pauline Epistles. Why would the authors spend so much resources to write up obsolete instructions?

Elsewhere, Paul also teaches about works required for salvation:

Romans 2
4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
.......
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

2 Corinthians 5
1“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Messiah, so that each may receive what has been done through the body, whether good or bad”.

The authors were writing for the Jews, to them, these instructions were not obsolete. When the rapture of the church happen, what will be left on earth will be the unbelieving Jews as well as the Gentiles. When the grace dispensation is over, salvation will once again be based on faith AND works.

That is how James 2, 1 John and Revelations 14:9-12, can be understood. They can also learn a lot about how to be saved from the 4 Gospels, which was also based on faith AND works.

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
The authors were writing for the Jews, to them, these instructions were not obsolete. When the rapture of the church happen, what will be left on earth will be the unbelieving Jews as well as the Gentiles. When the grace dispensation is over, salvation will once again be based on faith AND works.

That is how James 2, 1 John and Revelations 14:9-12, can be understood. They can also learn a lot about how to be saved from the 4 Gospels, which was also based on faith AND works.

You are talking about how covenants. agreements, wills are made operational according to which audience is being addressed. However Paul says a will cannot be executed if the testator is alive. So who has to die in order for the faith and works covenant to come into force?

And how do you explain Paul teaching the necessity of works, to the church in Rome in the verse I quoted in the previous post?

Guojing · Aug 1, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
You are talking about how covenants. agreements, wills are made operational according to which audience is being addressed. However Paul says a will cannot be executed if the testator is alive. So who has to die in order for the faith and works covenant to come into force?

And how do you explain Paul teaching the necessity of works, to the church in Rome in the verse I quoted in the previous post?

The passage you quote in Cor is about the bema seat of Christ, where believers receive rewards for works done, its not about salvation.

Basically, you already started with the view that works are required for salvation, and you interpret passages to fit that belief. Hence, anything others tell you will not change your view.

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Kaon said:
Inspired, but not directly commanded or said by the Most High God. This isn't blasphemy, this is contextual analysis.

Dogma has been made based on subtle confusion, misunderstandings and downright ignorance. It is perpetuated by leaders, so called leaders, and people who like myths and legends.

To say every word = the spoken Word of God is ignorant, because it ignores the fact that the bible distinguishes direct commandments, and Word (including the description of His actual image) of the Most High God, and other entities speaking.

So, where does the Most High God actually and directly say that we can disobey His Law or consider it abolished, null, and/or void. I would much rather be considered a blasphemous demon by you than to do something that someone else told me to do despite what the Father said.

Again: show where the Most High God actually gave us permission to disobey ANY of His commandments He previously set up. Otherwise we can discontinue our exchange. I am not going to listen to a human that tells me God said we can disobey or abolish His commandments when both his Son and He says otherwise - directly and identified in the canon. But, I am actually open to hearing where the Most High God said the aforementioned - directly.

You are making a distinction where they do not exist between God's commands and commands communicated by the writers of Scripture. Are you saying NONE of the commands made by those writers are valid or only some are? If so how do you distinguish between them? Is the criteria given by God or the writers? If by the writers, what part does inspiration play?

And what do you make of the words of God, abrogating the food laws, reversing the prohibition made about eating of the flesh of unclean animals, recorded by Mark, a human, as are all the other commands of God, all recorded by humans, considered to be the words of God, by virtue of being included in Canon, curated and decided by humans??

Mark 7
14After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16[“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]

17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Finally, are you going to continue to break the rules of the forum?

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
The passage you quote in Cor is about the bema seat of Christ, where believers receive rewards for works done, its not about salvation.

Basically, you already started with the view that works are required for salvation, and you interpret passages to fit that belief. Hence, anything others tell you will not change your view.

But you said Paul only instructed Gentiles, whereas the text is addressed to both Jew and Gentile.

The judgment is righteous and NOT righteous.

And the reward is eternal life, so the punishment is NOT HAVING eternal life. Doesn't sound like the reward teaching of the Hyper Grace Sect...

Oldmantook · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
If you are saying Paul is contradicting himself by saying one thing in the first half of Romans and another in the 2nd half, then I would disagree with your interpretation.

If you understand Paul's epistles, the first half is on imperatives, who a Christian is in Christ, the 2nd half is indicative, because of his identity, what he should then do.

In summary, you obey because of who you already are in Christ. Obeying does not result in you being in Christ.

You did not bother to explain Rom 8:13. If you were familiar with the Greek language, you would know that Rom 8:13 consists of two clauses which make this verse a 1st class conditional sentences. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. Simply put, assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument that you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis is (then) you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death.

I do agree with you that you obey because who you already are in Christ. However, continued obedience is necessary, otherwise if you disobey and start living according to the flesh as Paul states, you will die - spiritual death.

Guojing · Aug 1, 2019

Oldmantook said:
You did not bother to explain Rom 8:13. If you were familiar with the Greek language, you would know that Rom 8:13 consists of two clauses which make this verse a 1st class conditional sentences. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. Simply put, assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument that you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis is (then) you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death.

I do agree with you that you obey because who you already are in Christ. However, continued obedience is necessary, otherwise if you disobey and start living according to the flesh as Paul states, you will die - spiritual death.

As I have already explained to you, why would Paul contradict himself in Romans 8 if, in the previous chapters, such as Romans 5:15-19, he already clearly stated that salvation is a free gift?

If you want to make a convincing argument, you have to explain why Romans 5:12-19, Paul actually does not mean that salvation is a free gift. Otherwise your interpretation of Romans 8:13 has Paul contradicting himself.

I mean think properly what you are implying. If Adam's free gift was that powerful until none of us can renounce Satan or do enough good deeds to get rid of that gift, you are implying that Jesus's free gift to us is not "much more" since, as you believe, you can lose that gift from doing enough "bad deeds".

Oldmantook · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
As I have already explained to you, why would Paul contradict himself in Romans 8 if, in the previous chapters, such as Romans 5:15-19, he already clearly stated that salvation is a free gift?

If you want to make a convincing argument, you have to explain why Romans 5:12-19, Paul actually does not mean that salvation is a free gift. Otherwise your interpretation of Romans 8:13 has Paul contradicting himself.

I mean think properly what you are implying. If Adam's free gift was that powerful until none of us can renounce Satan or do enough good deeds to get rid of that gift, you are implying that Jesus's free gift to us is not "much more" since, as you believe, you can lose that gift from doing enough "bad deeds".

Do you not understand that a gift can be given unconditionally or with a condition? I already pointed out to you that Rom 8:13 has conditions attached to it that either result in spiritual life or spiritual death. I can give my child a car for use when he goes away to college. He did not pay for it as I gave it freely to him. However I can stipulate the condition that he must maintain good grades in order to keep the car. Same thing with salvation as it is not unconditional as it requires abiding in Christ through ongoing obedience. That is why Paul stipulated that we must not use grace as a license to sin in Rom 6:1. Furthermore, no where in Rom 5:12-19 does it state that salvation is a FREE gift as you have inserted that word into the text. It is a gift, but it cost Jesus everything and we are commanded to do the same thing when we take up our crosses and follow him.

If you think you can't do a "bad deed" that will result in you becoming separated from God and losing the gift of eternal life, go ahead and take the mark of the beast and see what happens then.

Guojing · Aug 1, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Do you not understand that a gift can be given unconditionally or with a condition? I already pointed out to you that Rom 8:13 has conditions attached to it that either result in spiritual life or spiritual death. I can give my child a car for use when he goes away to college. He did not pay for it as I gave it freely to him. However I can stipulate the condition that he must maintain good grades in order to keep the car. Same thing with salvation as it is not unconditional as it requires abiding in Christ through ongoing obedience. That is why Paul stipulated that we must not use grace as a license to sin in Rom 6:1. Furthermore, no where in Rom 5:12-19 does it state that salvation is a FREE gift as you have inserted that word into the text. It is a gift, but it cost Jesus everything and we are commanded to do the same thing when we take up our crosses and follow him.

If you think you can't do a "bad deed" that will result in you becoming separated from God and losing the gift of eternal life, go ahead and take the mark of the beast and see what happens then.

The definition of the word "gift" already means without payment. It is true that in order to give us this gift, Jesus had to die.

So you think salvation is conditional on ongoing performance. Okay, you have the right to hold that belief. We can agree to disagree then. As for the mark of the beast, I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.

Gideons300 · Aug 1, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Yeah, I don't disagree that faith leads to obedience.

There is an interesting verse found in Luke 17 that we may want to review. It is found in the parable of the talents. Remember the one servant who made no gain with what he had been entrusted?

And what was his fate? He had what had been given to him taken back. Boy, that ought to get our attention. But will it?

Anyway, after the master dealt with his unfaithful servant, He made this bone chilling statement that flies in the face of our 'adapted' view of grace.

"Then bring all those who would not have me to reign over them and slay them before me."

Ouch.

blessings,

Gideon

Wordkeeper · Aug 1, 2019

Guojing said:
As I have already explained to you, why would Paul contradict himself in Romans 8 if, in the previous chapters, such as Romans 5:15-19, he already clearly stated that salvation is a free gift?

If you want to make a convincing argument, you have to explain why Romans 5:12-19, Paul actually does not mean that salvation is a free gift. Otherwise your interpretation of Romans 8:13 has Paul contradicting himself.

I mean think properly what you are implying. If Adam's free gift was that powerful until none of us can renounce Satan or do enough good deeds to get rid of that gift, you are implying that Jesus's free gift to us is not "much more" since, as you believe, you can lose that gift from doing enough "bad deeds".

You have to understand that there was great puzzlement in the church about God's dealing with Israel. Had God's word failed?

The Jews said no, God would still use Israel to be a blessing to the world, based on Abraham's "works". So the Gentiles needed to become Jews. Paul said that Abraham didn't have anything to boast about before God, his being saved was because of God's grace!

Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

The Gentiles thought that their efforts at following their conscience was what moved God to include them in the promised blessing, but Paul again said no! They hadn't done better than Israel. It was again a gift.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 15
11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Faith and Obedience

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