Bernie Sanders admits he will raise taxes on the middle class

NotreDame

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Why not? If everyone in my town pays $10 for a widget, why should I pay $20 for the same widget?



So why can't we use any of the many, many, many developed nations that use Single Payer as well as our Medicare system which is Single payer as a model?

Oh you can use them, however, they aren’t particularly compelling to support Bernie’s claim people will pay less. Why? The NYT article provides the answer.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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As Bernie reminds us, health care is not free, but at least you'll be paying less for it.

How will I be paying less when I will also be paying for all of the illegal ones that come here for free health care?
The math don't add up.

Is this another one of those you can keep your doctor deals?

M-Bob
 
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Tom 1

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Blame that on Bernie. The article is essentially asking for the data. It is Bernie’s plan. Doesn’t make sense to insist the authors of the article provide the specifics of Bernie’s plan.

I don't see the point of it otherwise - if they are saying it doesn't add up then it would be a basic thing to say why. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that there are so many sites like this that get quoted, that don't say anything of any use. All it says is 'we think this is bad/dumb/whatever' but without any attempt to argue a point, pass on some information, or do anything at all. What's the point? There are so many negative comments about the 'main stream media', but the main outlets at least publish cogent and useful articles, whereas sites like the one quoted just basically say 'we think some stuff' as if they have no obligation to even try and justify whatever they write. A lot of the supposed alternatives to actual news like this one appear to have a mentality that is something like ' well "everyone knows" this is true so why bother with things like facts and evidence'. It's pretty poor quality stuff.
 
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Gene2memE

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Yeah? How so? Show us the math.

Here's a Rand 2018 cost estimate of Medicare For All.

Bottom line is that Medicare for All would be 1.8% more expensive than the current US system ($3891 billion vs $3823 billion), but cover an extra 11% of the US population (around 36 million more people) with a higher standard of coverage AND greater health care consumption.

In other words, the total cost would go up a little, but cost would go down on a per person basis by abut 9%. And each person would have better health care and use that health coverage more often.

Other estimates of Medicare for All are generally lower, ranging from $2400 billion at the low end to $3700 billion at the upper end. About the only one I've seen that is higher is from the Urban Institute, which puts it at about $4200 billion.
 
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Speedwell

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How will I be paying less when I will also be paying for all of the illegal ones that come here for free health care?
The math don't add up.
Have you actually done the math, or do you just imagine it won't add up?
 
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KCfromNC

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How will I be paying less when I will also be paying for all of the illegal ones that come here for free health care?

Because "you" are already "paying for them" now, and single payer would be cheaper per capita served. See the various references in the thread for more details.
 
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NotreDame

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I don't see the point of it otherwise - if they are saying it doesn't add up then it would be a basic thing to say why. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that there are so many sites like this that get quoted, that don't say anything of any use. All it says is 'we think this is bad/dumb/whatever' but without any attempt to argue a point, pass on some information, or do anything at all. What's the point? There are so many negative comments about the 'main stream media', but the main outlets at least publish cogent and useful articles, whereas sites like the one quoted just basically say 'we think some stuff' as if they have no obligation to even try and justify whatever they write. A lot of the supposed alternatives to actual news like this one appear to have a mentality that is something like ' well "everyone knows" this is true so why bother with things like facts and evidence'.

I have no idea what your basis of complaint is above. None. The point of the article is simple. The authors of the article are demanding of Bernie to show us the math, the data, supporting his contention Medicare for All will result in the middle class paying less for health care, and that includes any tax hike will be less than what they pay now or offset somehow.

It's pretty poor quality stuff

Yep, Bernie's notion the middle class will pay less for healthcare under Medicare for All than they presently do for health care, while providing no math, details, or data of how, is "pretty poor quality stuff." Of course, that is the point of the article, to illustrate Bernie has no details, none, of how exactly Medicare for All will result in the middle class paying less for healthcare.
 
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whatbogsends

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Blame that on Bernie. The article is essentially asking for the data. It is Bernie’s plan. Doesn’t make sense to insist the authors of the article provide the specifics of Bernie’s plan.

No, the article made the claim "The math doesn't add up". It didn't say - we're skeptical of Bernie's assumptions, please show us the math. The article made an unsupported claim that the math doesn't add up.

I agree, I haven't seen Bernie's numbers for his claim, and challenging his claim is appropriate, but that's not what the article has done.

As far as Bernie's claim, I don't find it hard to believe. Our out of control healthcare costs are largely driven by administration costs associated with our insurance and delivery system. If we simplify that, which Medicare for all would do, it would drive down those administrative costs, which should be able to be passed to health care consumers.
 
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Speedwell

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What has this got to do with the Christian Faith?
It has to do with defending the Christian faith against evil atheistic gun controlling, baby killing socialist America haters.
 
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whatbogsends

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Democrats always have something phony to offer.
Look at Obamacare.
M-Bob

Which was repealed and replaced on day one of Trump's presidency just like he promised. Amiright?

He's doing such a great job of keeping his campaign promises.

Hillary. Locked up.
Wall. Built. 30' high of concrete. Paid for by Mexico.
Swamp. Drained.
Obamacare. Repealed and replaced.

So much winning.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Hillary. Locked up.



Wall. Built. 30' high of concrete. Paid for by Mexico.
Swamp. Drained.
Obamacare. Repealed and replaced.

So much winning.

(Everyone) knows that she broke many laws.

Guarantee -- If you or I did the same
we would be doing time.

This always causes me to remember
the old pay and play fake foundation.
Nobody hardly donates to any more.
Why?
Because there is nothing Hillary can do for them today.

M-Bob
 
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NotreDame

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Here's a Rand 2018 cost estimate of Medicare For All.

Bottom line is that Medicare for All would be 1.8% more expensive than the current US system ($3891 billion vs $3823 billion), but cover an extra 11% of the US population (around 36 million more people) with a higher standard of coverage AND greater health care consumption.

In other words, the total cost would go up a little, but cost would go down on a per person basis by abut 9%. And each person would have better health care and use that health coverage more often.

Other estimates of Medicare for All are generally lower, ranging from $2400 billion at the low end to $3700 billion at the upper end. About the only one I've seen that is higher is from the Urban Institute, which puts it at about $4200 billion.

That is one view, based on estimates.

There are other views.

Would ‘Medicare for All’ Save Billions or Cost Billions?

The NYT article sums it up succinctly when it said:

"All of these estimates looked at the potential health care bill under a Sanders-style Medicare for all plan. In some estimates, the country would not pay more for health care, but there would still be a drastic shift in who is doing the paying. Individuals and their employers now pay nearly half of the total cost of medical care, but that percentage would fall close to zero, and the percentage paid by the federal government would rise to compensate. Even under Mr. Blahous’s lower estimate, which assumes a reduction in overall health care spending, federal spending on health care would still increase by 10 percent of G.D.P., or more than triple what the government spends on the military.

How that transfer takes place is one of the least well explained parts of the reform proposals. Taxation is the most obvious way to collect that extra revenue, but so far none of the current Medicare for all proposals have included a detailed tax plan. Even if total medical spending stayed flat over all, some taxpayers could come out ahead and pay less; others could find themselves paying more.

Raising revenue would require broad tax increases that are likely to be partly borne by the middle class, potentially impeding passage. Advocates, including Mr. Sanders, tend to favor funding the program with payroll taxes.

For some people, any increase in federal taxes might be more than offset by reductions in their spending on premiums, co-payments, deductibles and state taxes. There is evidence to suggest that premium savings by employers would also be returned to workers in the form of higher salaries. But, depending on the details, other groups could end up paying more in tax increases than they save in those reductions.

After Mr. Sanders’s presidential campaign released a tax proposal in 2016, the Urban Institute tried to calculate the effects on different groups. But it found that the proposed taxes would pay for only about half of the increased federal bill. That means that a real financing proposal would probably need to raise a lot more in taxes. How those are spread across the population would change who would be better or worse off under Medicare for all."
So, contrary to the widely popular belief, it is not necessarily true "cost would go down on a per person basis."

History provides a proper basis for the incredulity that Medicare for All would result in "cost would go down on a per person basis." Medicare and Medicaid estimates were, perhaps inevitably, proven inaccurate, by a meager 58 billion for a specific component of Medicare, a drop in the bucket of 86 billion for the entire cost of Medicare, and a 16 billion dollar miscalculation for relief payments to hospitals under Medicaid.

But even ignoring the miscalculated estimates regarding Medicaid and Medicare, too often politicians have passed legislation with spending cuts, increased spending for some program, creations of new programs, promising lower costs, promising this will not result adding to the deficit or result in a tax hike, and the opposite has occurred. Medicare for All is going to cost A LOT of money. A LOW ESTIMATE of Medicare For All would approximately result in "federal spending on health care would still increase by 10 percent of G.D.P., or more than triple what the government spends on the military," and that is despite "Mr. Blahous’s lower estimate, which assumes a reduction in overall health care spending." This will be paid for by taxes.

Until Bernie provides the meticulous details of how he is going to pay for Medicare for All, while resulting in the middle class paying less for healthcare, I will remain skeptical, and justifiably so.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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That is one view, based on estimates.

There are other views.

Would ‘Medicare for All’ Save Billions or Cost Billions?

The NYT article sums it up succinctly when it said:

"All of these estimates looked at the potential health care bill under a Sanders-style Medicare for all plan. In some estimates, the country would not pay more for health care, but there would still be a drastic shift in who is doing the paying. Individuals and their employers now pay nearly half of the total cost of medical care, but that percentage would fall close to zero, and the percentage paid by the federal government would rise to compensate. Even under Mr. Blahous’s lower estimate, which assumes a reduction in overall health care spending, federal spending on health care would still increase by 10 percent of G.D.P., or more than triple what the government spends on the military.

How that transfer takes place is one of the least well explained parts of the reform proposals. Taxation is the most obvious way to collect that extra revenue, but so far none of the current Medicare for all proposals have included a detailed tax plan. Even if total medical spending stayed flat over all, some taxpayers could come out ahead and pay less; others could find themselves paying more.

Raising revenue would require broad tax increases that are likely to be partly borne by the middle class, potentially impeding passage. Advocates, including Mr. Sanders, tend to favor funding the program with payroll taxes.

For some people, any increase in federal taxes might be more than offset by reductions in their spending on premiums, co-payments, deductibles and state taxes. There is evidence to suggest that premium savings by employers would also be returned to workers in the form of higher salaries. But, depending on the details, other groups could end up paying more in tax increases than they save in those reductions.

After Mr. Sanders’s presidential campaign released a tax proposal in 2016, the Urban Institute tried to calculate the effects on different groups. But it found that the proposed taxes would pay for only about half of the increased federal bill. That means that a real financing proposal would probably need to raise a lot more in taxes. How those are spread across the population would change who would be better or worse off under Medicare for all."
So, contrary to the widely popular belief, it is not necessarily true "cost would go down on a per person basis."

History provides a proper basis for the incredulity that Medicare for All would result in "cost would go down on a per person basis." Medicare and Medicaid estimates were, perhaps inevitably, proven inaccurate, by a meager 58 billion for a specific component of Medicare, a drop in the bucket of 86 billion for the entire cost of Medicare, and a 16 billion dollar miscalculation for relief payments to hospitals under Medicaid.

But even ignoring the miscalculated estimates regarding Medicaid and Medicare, too often politicians have passed legislation with spending cuts, increased spending for some program, creations of new programs, promising lower costs, promising this will not result adding to the deficit or result in a tax hike, and the opposite has occurred. Medicare for All is going to cost A LOT of money. A LOW ESTIMATE of Medicare For All would approximately result in "federal spending on health care would still increase by 10 percent of G.D.P., or more than triple what the government spends on the military," and that is despite "Mr. Blahous’s lower estimate, which assumes a reduction in overall health care spending." This will be paid for by taxes.

Until Bernie provides the meticulous details of how he is going to pay for Medicare for All, while resulting in the middle class paying less for healthcare, I will remain skeptical, and justifiably so.

You would be correct.
They just want to tax us to death.
M-Bob
 
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whatbogsends

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(Everyone) knows that she broke many laws.

Guarantee -- If you or I did the same
we would be doing time.

This always causes me to remember the old pay and play fake foundation.
Nobody hardly donates any more.
Why?
Because there is nothing Hillary can do for them today.

M-Bob

Hillary is probably guilty of crimes, but she was investigated much more than Trump, and much less was found about her. Either Trump is more corrupt or more incompetent with his corruption. If they have something concrete on her, then she should be prosecuted.

If you and I obstructed an investigation as Trump has done, we would be doing time.

Trump's administration is entirely pay to play, he's been caught self dealing in his foundation, and has had businesses closed down due to fraud. Yet, somehow, you seem only concerned about Hillary's crimes and not at all about Trump's. It's not surprising, but it's very telling.
 
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NotreDame

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To the contrary, yes. The article "is essentially asking for the data."

After all, the article said:

"And now the question becomes...where do these numbers come from? How does Bernie figure that people will save money if they're paying more in taxes."
Yeah, that is a request for the supporting data, the actual numbers, the actual math.
 
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wing2000

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Until Bernie provides the meticulous details of how he is going to pay for Medicare for All, while resulting in the middle class paying less for healthcare, I will remain skeptical, and justifiably so.

...as well as address how to address the rising cost.
 
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Speedwell

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You would be correct.
They just want to tax us to death.
M-Bob
How about this: You could opt out of the health care tax and the health care program but your name would go on a list of people who could be denied admittance to hospital emergency rooms.
 
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