LDS LDS---YIKES!

mmksparbud said:

It was an accepted practice, and there is not one piece of evidence that states God wanted Ishmael. Just the opposite---He caste both Hagar and Ishmael OUT. That pretty well says God was not pleased.

Gen_21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Gen_21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

God was bound to make a nation of Ishmael BECAUSE he was the son of Abraham. Not because God wanted to have Ishmael in the picture at all. God does not stop our choices----once the choices are made, then the consequences follow.

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Knowing how the Lord was with Abraham all his life, I do not see that the Lord was angry with Abraham for taking Hagar to wife. If God did not want Ishmael, he took a lemon and turned it into lemonade. Ishmael became the father of the Bedouin Tribes that have done exactly as the angel told Hagar, Ishmael will be against all men, and all men will be against him, that is a perfect description of the Bedouin Tribes throughout history.

He is the way said:

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

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Another non-answer.

BigDaddy4 said:

Another non-answer.

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So what makes you think David knew God? Would David have committed adultery and caused Uriah to be killed if he knew God? God is LOVE, what David did was not LOVE.

He is the way said:

So what makes you think David knew God? Would David have committed adultery and caused Uriah to be killed if he knew God? God is LOVE, what David did was not LOVE.

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So you think God is wrong when He declares David a man after His own heart? You think God doesn't know the heart? Yes, God is love---do you think that threatening Emma Smith with destruction if she did not accept JS's new little hot tamale as his wife was love?

He is the way said:

So what makes you think David knew God? Would David have committed adultery and caused Uriah to be killed if he knew God? God is LOVE, what David did was not LOVE.

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Well, let's see... the opening line of Matthew's Gospel says:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham

So, there's that. Then there's the other 16 verses Jesus is called the Son of David in the Gospels. Does your theology really hold that David did not know God, yet Jesus was referenced as the "Son of David"? Isn't there some contradiction there for you?

mmksparbud said:

So you think God is wrong when He declares David a man after His own heart? You think God doesn't know the heart? Yes, God is love---do you think that threatening Emma Smith with destruction if she did not accept JS's new little hot tamale as his wife was love?

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God said that about David before he turned away from God. Joseph Smith did not threaten Emma Smith over polygamy. This is the scripture about polygamy:
D&C 132:61
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

This was the scripture about Emma:

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

She was commanded to cleave Joseph Smith and none else. Nothing there about polygamy.

BigDaddy4 said:

Well, let's see... the opening line of Matthew's Gospel says:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham

So, there's that. Then there's the other 16 verses Jesus is called the Son of David in the Gospels. Does your theology really hold that David did not know God, yet Jesus was referenced as the "Son of David"? Isn't there some contradiction there for you?

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Not at all, John made it perfectly clear that those who do not keep the commandments don't know God.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 4)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

mmksparbud said:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

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That does not change anything. God commanded her to cleave to Joseph Smith and none other. That was the commandment and that has nothing to do with polygamy. Verse 52 does not say that Emma will be destroyed. It is about those who are not pure. I don't have a hard time understanding what is being said.

Phoebe Ann said:

• wrath of God shall be poured out upon wicked, D&C 1:9 (63:6; 103:2).
  
  
• repent lest I strike you by my wrath, D&C 19:15.
  
  
• Babylon has made nations drink of wine of wrath of her fornication, D&C 35:11(88:94, 105).
  
  
• cup of wrath of the Lord’s indignation is full, D&C 43:26.
  
  
• rebellious shall know God’s indignation in day of wrath, D&C 56:1.
  
  
• against none is God’s wrath kindled except those who confess not his hand, D&C 59:21.
  
  
• proclaim the Lord’s word not in wrath, D&C 60:14.
  
  
• day of wrath coming as whirlwind, D&C 63:6.
  
  
• signs given in wrath to condemnation, D&C 63:11.
  
  
• the Lord has sworn in his wrath and decreed wars, D&C 63:33.
  
  
• sons of perdition are vessels of wrath, D&C 76:33.
  
  
• telestial beings suffer wrath of God on earth, D&C 76:104.
  
  
• the Lord in his wrath swore that Israelites should not enter his rest, D&C 84:24.
  
  
• inhabitants of earth to feel wrath of an Almighty God, D&C 87:6.
  
  
  Wrath

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Did you forget some:

(Old Testament | Exodus 22:24)

24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

(Old Testament | Numbers 11:33)

33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 9:8)

8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 9:22)

22 And at Taberah, and at Massah, and at Kibroth-hattaavah, ye provoked the LORD to wrath.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 11:17)

17 And then the LORD's wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 29:28)

28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 22:8)

8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

(Old Testament | 2 Kings 23:26)

26 ¶ Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.

(Old Testament | 2 Chronicles 28:11)

11 Now hear me therefore, and deliver the captives again, which ye have taken captive of your brethren: for the fierce wrath of the LORD is upon you.

(Old Testament | 2 Chronicles 34:25)

25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

And there are many many more.

Phoebe Ann said:

Exactly ---- God loves more than anyone, but God is capable of wrath.

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That is why we need to fear God:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

He is the way said:

Not at all, John made it perfectly clear that those who do not keep the commandments don't know God.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 4)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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Then, as you have admitted that you do not keep his commandments, you do not know God, either. How's that going to work out for you?

I'll stick with the Bible which says David knew God and God knew David.

BigDaddy4 said:

Then, as you have admitted that you do not keep his commandments, you do not know God, either. How's that going to work out for you?

I'll stick with the Bible which says David knew God and God knew David.

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You said: "Then, as you have admitted that you do not keep his commandments" I didn't say that I do not keep the commandments, I said I, like everyone else, have sinned. Do you not understand the difference?

He is the way said:

You said: "Then, as you have admitted that you do not keep his commandments" I didn't say that I do not keep the commandments, I said I, like everyone else, have sinned. Do you not understand the difference?

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I don't think you do. David sinned, and you accused him of not knowing God. What's the difference for you? Why do you think you are more special than David?

mmksparbud said:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

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God has destroyed other people who would not abide his laws. This is not a new concept.

It was vitally important that JS listen to Jesus's instructions, and bring about the law of plural marriage to the early Church of Jesus Christ.

BigDaddy4 said:

I don't think you do. David sinned, and you accused him of not knowing God. What's the difference for you? Why do you think you are more special than David?

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I did not say I was more special than David. I said that in order to know God a person needs to keep the commandments. That is what the Bible states, it also states that those who LOVE Jesus keep the commandments and those tho do not LOVE Jesus do not keep the commandments.

He is the way said:

I did not say I was more special than David. I said that in order to know God a person needs to keep the commandments. That is what the Bible states, it also states that those who LOVE Jesus keep the commandments and those tho do not LOVE Jesus do not keep the commandments.

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And you have admitted that you are a sinner and do not keep the commandments. Therefore, according to your words, you do not love Jesus. Same thing you are accusing David of, despite Biblical references indicating otherwise.