Are you saved or delusional?

Bible Highlighter said:

There really is not point in continuing this discussion unless you address the specific points I made in Scripture, and you explain what those verses are saying.

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Well kind sir, once you apply a dash of exegesis to the Scriptures you rip out of context, I will address them.

redleghunter said:

You know I read @genez post which you quoted. Genez actually did put the entire chapter and discourse in perspective. Jesus was instructing His disciples and Genez did point out that 'you' taking that one verse to mean one can lose their salvation was an error. Jesus is not warning His disciples to fear for their lives but pointing out no man can do anything with their soul.

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No. He was wrong. He was suggesting that Jesus was referring Matthew 10:28 was said to unbelievers but no unbelievers were present. It was only Christ's disciples who were present. Jesus telling them not to fear what man can do to their bodies (as believers), but they are only to fear the ONE (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

redleghunter said:

Well kind sir, once you apply a dash of exegesis to the Scriptures you rip out of context, I will address them.

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I have explained your verses that supposedly appears to support Eternal Security. But you don't want to see the context. Now, when I have verses that disprove Eternal Security, you don't want to play ball. Hey, that's up to you. Explain it using the context if you like. But if you don't want to explain your belief with the Bible, that just only makes your belief look bad.

Bible Highlighter said:

I already said to others here in this thread that looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hell fire. So yes. Wrong thoughts can condemn a believer (myself included). I am not above God's Word anymore than you are.

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Ok maybe getting somewhere. If you have an unclean lusting thought and then get hit by a meteor, what is your eternal state? Did that one sin just condemn you to hell fire? Or do you think God keeps you around a bit longer until you are convicted of your sin and you repent. Or do you think God is gracious and merciful to you?

Bible Highlighter said:

That's a cop out. I have explained your verses that supposedly appears to support Eternal Security.

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I provided entire passages and chapters showing Jesus will never lose His sheep. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Ministry of the Holy Spirit? That our sanctification is not as orphans with a Bible in our hands? That we are Sanctified by the Father, Sanctified by the Son, and Sanctified by the Holy Spirit? That's the Power of God in our sanctification. It is no wonder Jesus will lose none of the sheep the Father gives to Him.

redleghunter said:

Ok maybe getting somewhere. If you have an unclean lusting thought and then get hit by a meteor, what is your eternal state? Did that one sin just condemn you to hell fire? Or do you think God keeps you around a bit longer until you are convicted of your sin and you repent. Or do you think God is gracious and merciful to you?

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This is not a new development. I have used Matthew 10:28-30 probably hundreds of times on this forum. I have always known that one's thoughts can condemn you. Yes, if a believer is hit by a meteor while they were having a lustful thought, they would not be saved. But God is merciful and if He knows that person will not justify sin, He will not take their life before giving them a chance to confess of their sin before God chooses to take their life. If God knows that from that point on, they want to just keep on sinning, and they will do even worse things, it is the Lord's prerogative to take their life to their condemnation because He knows what kind of person they are going to turn out to be like.

This life is a stage. It is a test. We have to prove ourselves to the Lord in that we are going to be faithful to Him. That is why we are here. This life is not about having a belief like that of demons (James 2:19). True faith is always shown true by works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

redleghunter said:

I provided entire passages and chapters showing Jesus will never lose His sheep. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Ministry of the Holy Spirit? That our sanctification is not as orphans with a Bible in our hands? That we are Sanctified by the Father, Sanctified by the Son, and Sanctified by the Holy Spirit? That's the Power of God in our sanctification. It is no wonder Jesus will lose none of the sheep the Father gives to Him.

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And you ignore the context that his sheep FOLLOW Him as per verse 27.
A person who justifies that they can sin and still be saved is not following Jesus because Jesus never condoned the idea that we can sin (Which would make Jesus an accomplice to sin) as a part of following Him.

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay, First, I ignored your point about the numbers because it was not relevant to context of what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount.

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But it WAS relevant to your having used a numbers argument for your view and against mine. Are you cutting and pasting so furiously that you can't keep track of the things you say?

Bible Highlighter said:

In context of Jesus talking about the narrow way, He was referring to righteous living by His New Covenant teachings and how sin can destroy a person's soul. To deny this is to deny the plain words of Jesus.

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But YOU are the one ignoring context here. To whom was Jesus speaking? Born again believers? NO. Was he speaking post-Calvary, after he had established the New Covenant through his atoning sacrifice on the cross? NO. Does Jesus say one word about how he would be the Narrow Gate, the Saviour and Redeemer of sinful humanity? NO. Does Jesus speak of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, who would spiritually-regenerate people and enable godly living? NO. So, this is the context in which Jesus was speaking. How, then, can Jesus be talking about "righteous living by His New Covenant teachings" when he says nothing about himself as Saviour and nothing about the Holy Spirit as Enabler - both of which are the foundation of New Covenant living?! Once again, your simplistic method of applying Scripture to your view steers you wrong.

Bible Highlighter said:

Second, you assume two false things. You assume falsely:

#1. Jesus primarily taught Old Covenant.

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No, I don't make this assumption. But in the instance of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, Jesus's words were aimed at people under the OT Covenant and who were thinking of righteousness in that context. In other places, Jesus speaks of the coming kingdom of God, and his work as the sacrificial Lamb of God.

Bible Highlighter said:

#2. Jesus taught that righteousness instruction before the cross was a means to show that it was impossible to obey God's laws.

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No, he was not teaching that it was impossible to keep God's laws, only to keep them perfectly. And perfection, as Christ's Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 outlined, was God's requirement for entrance into His kingdom.

Bible Highlighter said:

For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

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All of this does my work for me. It demonstrates the impossible standard Christ set before his listeners in his Sermon on the Mount, who were centuries steeped in OT law, that looked not merely to external conformity to the rules but to the secret attitudes of one's heart.

Bible Highlighter said:

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

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None of this has any bearing on the context within which Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. It is what I called "distracting fluff" when marking the essays of the students I taught as a High School teacher. Inasmuch as you are quoting Paul and not Christ, and inasmuch as the question in view was about Christ's Sermon on the Mount, not Paul's letters, what Paul may or may not have written is irrelevant.

Bible Highlighter said:

So it appears things have changed.

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Of course things have changed. This was never a point of contention.

Bible Highlighter said:

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

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This is all beside the point concerning the context of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 and its contents. See above.

Bible Highlighter said:

To address the second thing you are assuming falsely (i.e. Jesus taught that righteousness instruction before the cross was a means to show that it was impossible to obey God's laws):

#1. Nowhere does Jesus ever say that the whole point of his righteous instructions given to us before the cross was a pointless exercise or that it was futile to keep. If Jesus said that, He would have been encouraging men to give up and just keep on sinning. This would mean Jesus would be in agreement with their sin if He believed that they could never overcome grievous sin (like lying, hating, lusting, etc.).

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I never asserted that Jesus had said that his preaching was a "pointless exercise or that it was futile to keep." This is another of your cartoons of what I have put forward, a Strawman that is easy for you to knock down. But Jesus did want to wean people off the idea that they could earn their way into God's good graces by their keeping of God's commands. As Jesus said, he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). Why? So that he could become the "new and living way" through whom all people could enter the Holy of Holies and commune with God directly. (Hebrews 10:19-22)

Bible Highlighter said:

#2. Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). So this doesn't sound like Jesus was trying to show the futility in the fact that they could not "sin no more." Even the apostle John after the cross tells us to: "Sin not" (1 John 2:1).

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I've never said that Jesus encouraged people to see obedience to God's commands as futile. But he was teaching them that law-keeping was insufficient to satisfy God's standard for entrance into His kingdom. Christ's listeners would have to trust in him, not their good works, in order to dwell with God in eternity. Jesus would become for them righteousness, and redemption, and the sole means of their acceptance by God.

Bible Highlighter said:

#3.The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

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Of course it does. And this is why lost people need the Saviour.

Bible Highlighter said:

#4. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

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No, Scripture doesn't tie our righteousness to our salvation - except as a manifestation of our saved condition.

Matthew 19:17-19 you have lifted somewhat out of its context. The verses you cite are part of an exchange between a Rich Young Ruler and Christ about what it took to obtain eternal life. Is the Young Ruler coming to Christ as a born-again believer? NO. Does Jesus tell him of his soon-to-come atoning work as Saviour and the need of the spiritual regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit? NO. Instead, Jesus approached the young man from a very OT way of thinking. Keep the law. Obey the rules. This is how people interacted with God in the OT. This was the OT way to paradise. And the young man thinks he's okay. He's kept the law carefully from an early age. But, as Jesus was constantly doing, he shattered the young man's confidence in his good works. Keeping the rules wasn't enough and Jesus went to the one place in the young man's life where he knew this would be clearly revealed: his wealth. "Give it away to the poor," Jesus says, "So that you may have treasure in heaven. And come follow me." Now the question of eternal life wasn't merely about following the rules, but the attitude and desire of the young man's heart. And Jesus's simple advice exposed how truly bankrupt the Rich Young Ruler was spiritually. For all of his law-keeping, the Young Ruler was actually far from God. So, the story doesn't really teach that obedience is the key to eternal life (except in an OT dynamic with God) but that obedience can often conceal a wayward heart that desires other things more than God.

Luke 10:25-28 I already addressed in a earlier post. It doesn't actually support a works-salvation doctrine, as you think.

1 John 1:7 simply tells us what the Gospel tells us: that if we are not walking (living) in the light, that is, if we are not in Christ who is the Light (John 3:18-21; John 8:12; John 9:5), we have not yet been cleansed of our sin by his blood. Here, again, the key to salvation is in whom we live, not in what we do.

1 John 3:23 doesn't tell us that good deeds are salvific but that faith in Christ is. This is exactly what the apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God..." This verse, then, doesn't support works-salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 doesn't actually say, "Obedience to Christ saves you."

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Does this verse make obedience to the Author of Eternal Salvation, to Christ, the means of our eternal salvation? No. It merely describes those who are Christ's.

But, if you want to take it that the verse is indicating that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation, then the question is what obedience is in view? If Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 are true, then the obedience in view cannot be the obedience of good works, because these verses explicitly and directly rule out good works as salvific. It seems to me, then, that the obedience in view is the obedience of faith, of simply trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord (John 6:28-29; John 6:40). There is certainly nothing at all in the verse itself or its immediate context that would rule out such a reading.

Revelation 22:14 is an interesting verse. Some Bible translations have it as follows:

Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But a greater number of English translations translate the verse this way:

Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

The oldest manuscripts (Alexandrinus, Sinaiticus) have the latter version ("wash their robes") in Greek which agrees far more easily with Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 than does the Majority text (KJV) reading. How are one's "robes" washed? In the blood of the Lamb (1 John 1:7). And how is that cleansing accomplished? By exercising a saving faith in Christ. So, then, Revelations 22:14 is saying much the same thing as Hebrews 5:9: the right to the tree of life is by trusting in Christ. The verse is NOT saying that our good deeds contribute to our salvation.

What has happened here in my investigation of your proof texts is what has happened in every instance in the past when I have examined the Scripture references you cite. Your references all fail to support your false doctrine.

Bible Highlighter said:

1 John 5:2-3 says, “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

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Nothing here that says that one's salvation depends upon one's obedience to God's commands.

Bible Highlighter said:

Luke 11:28 says, “Blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life (Jude 1:21).

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Nothing in any of these verses, either, that indicates that good works are necessary to being saved...

This is my last post to you in this thread, Jason. My interest in continuing this discussion has thoroughly waned.

May God lead you to His truth. He's the only One, really, who can.

redleghunter said:

You know I read @genez post which you quoted. Genez actually did put the entire chapter and discourse in perspective. Jesus was instructing His disciples and Genez did point out that 'you' taking that one verse to mean one can lose their salvation was an error. Jesus is not warning His disciples to fear for their lives but pointing out no man can do anything with their soul.

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Satan right now thinks he does not deserve hell..... Nothing will convince him.

Its going to take constant unbearable torment to get him to fess up the truth.

We in turn, are not here to torment a deceived soul. But, he will want to torment us with distortion and ill-logic.


Dust off your sandals.

aiki said:

But it WAS relevant to your having used a numbers argument for your view and against mine. Are you cutting and pasting so furiously that you can't keep track of the things you say?

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We are told to edify and build each other up.

What is his purpose here?

Jealousy is a heartless distorter.

Was he abused (spiritually) as a child?

Those who have been abused spiritually look at others who walk in grace and truth with jealousy. They are jealous because they think its out of their reach. So? It becomes a matter to the jealous of" we can't have it if he can not."

I think that might be what we are dealing with here.

Its no longer a matter of logic and reasoning our way through this. Jealousy when implacable can not be reasoned with. It can only be contained and locked up by Truth it will reject.


Its the 'thought' we need to take captive. Not the one thinking it.

Keep in mind. There are many guilty men behind bars chanting daily that they are innocent. Even Charles Manson did that.

The jail bars that contain the false doctrine are for others to see, and decide for themselves what it is they are going to accept to believe.

genez said:

We are told to edify and build each other up.

What is his purpose here?

Jealousy is a heartless distorter.

Was he abused (spiritually) as a child?

Those who have been abused spiritually look at others who walk in grace and truth with jealousy. They are jealous because they think its out of their reach. So? It becomes a matter to the jealous of" we can't have it if he can not."

I think that might be what we are dealing with here.

Its no longer a matter of logic and reasoning our way through this. Jealousy when implacable can not be reasoned with. It can only be contained and locked up by Truth it will reject.

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive
every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2Cor 10:5

​

Its the 'thought' we need to take captive. Not the one thinking it.

Keep in mind. There are many guilty men behind bars chanting daily that they are innocent. Even Charles Manson did that.

The jail bars that contain the false doctrine are for others to see, and decide for themselves what it is they are going to accept to believe.

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This is just yet another ad hominem because there is no real defense for your belief with the Bible. You are imagining things. I was not abused as a child, neither physically or spiritually. But this is not really about me, it's about what the Bible says, and the idea that you can sin and still be saved is not in the Scriptures, dear sir.

For example: 2 Corinthians 10:5 (The verse you are quoting) does not even support your belief. You cannot take every thought captive to Christ if you believe that a saint can sin and still be saved, and or if you believe that a Christian will always sin in some way in this life.

aiki said:

Of course things have changed. This was never a point of contention.



This is all beside the point concerning the context of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 and its contents. See above.



I never asserted that Jesus had said that his preaching was a "pointless exercise or that it was futile to keep." This is another of your cartoons of what I have put forward, a Strawman that is easy for you to knock down. But Jesus did want to wean people off the idea that they could earn their way into God's good graces by their keeping of God's commands. As Jesus said, he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). Why? So that he could become the "new and living way" through whom all people could enter the Holy of Holies and commune with God directly. (Hebrews 10:19-22)



I've never said that Jesus encouraged people to see obedience to God's commands as futile. But he was teaching them that law-keeping was insufficient to satisfy God's standard for entrance into His kingdom. Christ's listeners would have to trust in him, not their good works, in order to dwell with God in eternity. Jesus would become for them righteousness, and redemption, and the sole means of their acceptance by God.



Of course it does. And this is why lost people need the Saviour.



No, Scripture doesn't tie our righteousness to our salvation - except as a manifestation of our saved condition.

Matthew 19:17-19 you have lifted somewhat out of its context. The verses you cite are part of an exchange between a Rich Young Ruler and Christ about what it took to obtain eternal life. Is the Young Ruler coming to Christ as a born-again believer? NO. Does Jesus tell him of his soon-to-come atoning work as Saviour and the need of the spiritual regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit? NO. Instead, Jesus approached the young man from a very OT way of thinking. Keep the law. Obey the rules. This is how people interacted with God in the OT. This was the OT way to paradise. And the young man thinks he's okay. He's kept the law carefully from an early age. But, as Jesus was constantly doing, he shattered the young man's confidence in his good works. Keeping the rules wasn't enough and Jesus went to the one place in the young man's life where he knew this would be clearly revealed: his wealth. "Give it away to the poor," Jesus says, "So that you may have treasure in heaven. And come follow me." Now the question of eternal life wasn't merely about following the rules, but the attitude and desire of the young man's heart. And Jesus's simple advice exposed how truly bankrupt the Rich Young Ruler was spiritually. For all of his law-keeping, the Young Ruler was actually far from God. So, the story doesn't really teach that obedience is the key to eternal life (except in an OT dynamic with God) but that obedience can often conceal a wayward heart that desires other things more than God.

Luke 10:25-28 I already addressed in a earlier post. It doesn't actually support a works-salvation doctrine, as you think.

1 John 1:7 simply tells us what the Gospel tells us: that if we are not walking (living) in the light, that is, if we are not in Christ who is the Light (John 3:18-21; John 8:12; John 9:5), we have not yet been cleansed of our sin by his blood. Here, again, the key to salvation is in whom we live, not in what we do.

1 John 3:23 doesn't tell us that good deeds are salvific but that faith in Christ is. This is exactly what the apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God..." This verse, then, doesn't support works-salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 doesn't actually say, "Obedience to Christ saves you."

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Does this verse make obedience to the Author of Eternal Salvation, to Christ, the means of our eternal salvation? No. It merely describes those who are Christ's.

But, if you want to take it that the verse is indicating that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation, then the question is what obedience is in view? If Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 are true, then the obedience in view cannot be the obedience of good works, because these verses explicitly and directly rule out good works as salvific. It seems to me, then, that the obedience in view is the obedience of faith, of simply trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord (John 6:28-29; John 6:40). There is certainly nothing at all in the verse itself or its immediate context that would rule out such a reading.

Revelation 22:14 is an interesting verse. Some Bible translations have it as follows:

Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But a greater number of English translations translate the verse this way:

Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

The oldest manuscripts (Alexandrinus, Sinaiticus) have the latter version ("wash their robes") in Greek which agrees far more easily with Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 than does the Majority text (KJV) reading. How are one's "robes" washed? In the blood of the Lamb (1 John 1:7). And how is that cleansing accomplished? By exercising a saving faith in Christ. So, then, Revelations 22:14 is saying much the same thing as Hebrews 5:9: the right to the tree of life is by trusting in Christ. The verse is NOT saying that our good deeds contribute to our salvation.

What has happened here in my investigation of your proof texts is what has happened in every instance in the past when I have examined the Scripture references you cite. Your references all fail to support your false doctrine.



Nothing here that says that one's salvation depends upon one's obedience to God's commands.



Nothing in any of these verses, either, that indicates that good works are necessary to being saved...

This is my last post to you in this thread, Jason. My interest in continuing this discussion has thoroughly waned.

May God lead you to His truth. He's the only One, really, who can.

Click to expand...

You are imagining something in the teachings of Jesus Christ that are not there. While it is true, that giving up all to follow Jesus was a temporary instruction for certain disciples at that time (See this article here), it did pertain to their having eternal life. We know that this instruction of forsaking all did not apply to all because Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods and yet Jesus said salvation had come to his house that day (Luke 19:1-9). The disciples were later told to have certain things when going out on missionary journeys (Luke 22:35-36), and the disciples were said to own their own homes after the resurrection of Christ (Acts of the Apostles 17:7) (2 John 1:10). This does not mean that obeying the other commands did not apply to all believers. Jesus and neither His followers said that we can now break God's moral laws (like do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) with the thinking we are saved.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus was teaching primarily Old Covenant before the cross.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

aiki said:

Of course things have changed. This was never a point of contention.



This is all beside the point concerning the context of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 and its contents. See above.



I never asserted that Jesus had said that his preaching was a "pointless exercise or that it was futile to keep." This is another of your cartoons of what I have put forward, a Strawman that is easy for you to knock down. But Jesus did want to wean people off the idea that they could earn their way into God's good graces by their keeping of God's commands. As Jesus said, he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). Why? So that he could become the "new and living way" through whom all people could enter the Holy of Holies and commune with God directly. (Hebrews 10:19-22)



I've never said that Jesus encouraged people to see obedience to God's commands as futile. But he was teaching them that law-keeping was insufficient to satisfy God's standard for entrance into His kingdom. Christ's listeners would have to trust in him, not their good works, in order to dwell with God in eternity. Jesus would become for them righteousness, and redemption, and the sole means of their acceptance by God.



Of course it does. And this is why lost people need the Saviour.



No, Scripture doesn't tie our righteousness to our salvation - except as a manifestation of our saved condition.

Matthew 19:17-19 you have lifted somewhat out of its context. The verses you cite are part of an exchange between a Rich Young Ruler and Christ about what it took to obtain eternal life. Is the Young Ruler coming to Christ as a born-again believer? NO. Does Jesus tell him of his soon-to-come atoning work as Saviour and the need of the spiritual regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit? NO. Instead, Jesus approached the young man from a very OT way of thinking. Keep the law. Obey the rules. This is how people interacted with God in the OT. This was the OT way to paradise. And the young man thinks he's okay. He's kept the law carefully from an early age. But, as Jesus was constantly doing, he shattered the young man's confidence in his good works. Keeping the rules wasn't enough and Jesus went to the one place in the young man's life where he knew this would be clearly revealed: his wealth. "Give it away to the poor," Jesus says, "So that you may have treasure in heaven. And come follow me." Now the question of eternal life wasn't merely about following the rules, but the attitude and desire of the young man's heart. And Jesus's simple advice exposed how truly bankrupt the Rich Young Ruler was spiritually. For all of his law-keeping, the Young Ruler was actually far from God. So, the story doesn't really teach that obedience is the key to eternal life (except in an OT dynamic with God) but that obedience can often conceal a wayward heart that desires other things more than God.

Luke 10:25-28 I already addressed in a earlier post. It doesn't actually support a works-salvation doctrine, as you think.

1 John 1:7 simply tells us what the Gospel tells us: that if we are not walking (living) in the light, that is, if we are not in Christ who is the Light (John 3:18-21; John 8:12; John 9:5), we have not yet been cleansed of our sin by his blood. Here, again, the key to salvation is in whom we live, not in what we do.

1 John 3:23 doesn't tell us that good deeds are salvific but that faith in Christ is. This is exactly what the apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God..." This verse, then, doesn't support works-salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 doesn't actually say, "Obedience to Christ saves you."

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Does this verse make obedience to the Author of Eternal Salvation, to Christ, the means of our eternal salvation? No. It merely describes those who are Christ's.

But, if you want to take it that the verse is indicating that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation, then the question is what obedience is in view? If Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 are true, then the obedience in view cannot be the obedience of good works, because these verses explicitly and directly rule out good works as salvific. It seems to me, then, that the obedience in view is the obedience of faith, of simply trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord (John 6:28-29; John 6:40). There is certainly nothing at all in the verse itself or its immediate context that would rule out such a reading.

Revelation 22:14 is an interesting verse. Some Bible translations have it as follows:

Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But a greater number of English translations translate the verse this way:

Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

The oldest manuscripts (Alexandrinus, Sinaiticus) have the latter version ("wash their robes") in Greek which agrees far more easily with Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 than does the Majority text (KJV) reading. How are one's "robes" washed? In the blood of the Lamb (1 John 1:7). And how is that cleansing accomplished? By exercising a saving faith in Christ. So, then, Revelations 22:14 is saying much the same thing as Hebrews 5:9: the right to the tree of life is by trusting in Christ. The verse is NOT saying that our good deeds contribute to our salvation.

What has happened here in my investigation of your proof texts is what has happened in every instance in the past when I have examined the Scripture references you cite. Your references all fail to support your false doctrine.



Nothing here that says that one's salvation depends upon one's obedience to God's commands.



Nothing in any of these verses, either, that indicates that good works are necessary to being saved...

This is my last post to you in this thread, Jason. My interest in continuing this discussion has thoroughly waned.

May God lead you to His truth. He's the only One, really, who can.

Click to expand...

Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

In other words, if Paul preached differently than Jesus, he would not be in agreement with the words of Jesus before the cross anymore because things are different now. But this is not the case because if Paul did not primarily agree with the words of Jesus (before the cross) in his present time, he would be condemning himself by his own words.

Side Note:

Please take note that Paul says if any man does not agree with the doctrine of godliness (Which is what Jesus's words were all about), they are proud and they know nothing. So Paul makes it very clear that we cannot sin and still be saved. That would not be godliness, but anti-godliness. God is not about our thinking that we can sin and still be saved in any way. God is holy.

aiki said:

Of course things have changed. This was never a point of contention.



This is all beside the point concerning the context of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 and its contents. See above.



I never asserted that Jesus had said that his preaching was a "pointless exercise or that it was futile to keep." This is another of your cartoons of what I have put forward, a Strawman that is easy for you to knock down. But Jesus did want to wean people off the idea that they could earn their way into God's good graces by their keeping of God's commands. As Jesus said, he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). Why? So that he could become the "new and living way" through whom all people could enter the Holy of Holies and commune with God directly. (Hebrews 10:19-22)



I've never said that Jesus encouraged people to see obedience to God's commands as futile. But he was teaching them that law-keeping was insufficient to satisfy God's standard for entrance into His kingdom. Christ's listeners would have to trust in him, not their good works, in order to dwell with God in eternity. Jesus would become for them righteousness, and redemption, and the sole means of their acceptance by God.



Of course it does. And this is why lost people need the Saviour.



No, Scripture doesn't tie our righteousness to our salvation - except as a manifestation of our saved condition.

Matthew 19:17-19 you have lifted somewhat out of its context. The verses you cite are part of an exchange between a Rich Young Ruler and Christ about what it took to obtain eternal life. Is the Young Ruler coming to Christ as a born-again believer? NO. Does Jesus tell him of his soon-to-come atoning work as Saviour and the need of the spiritual regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit? NO. Instead, Jesus approached the young man from a very OT way of thinking. Keep the law. Obey the rules. This is how people interacted with God in the OT. This was the OT way to paradise. And the young man thinks he's okay. He's kept the law carefully from an early age. But, as Jesus was constantly doing, he shattered the young man's confidence in his good works. Keeping the rules wasn't enough and Jesus went to the one place in the young man's life where he knew this would be clearly revealed: his wealth. "Give it away to the poor," Jesus says, "So that you may have treasure in heaven. And come follow me." Now the question of eternal life wasn't merely about following the rules, but the attitude and desire of the young man's heart. And Jesus's simple advice exposed how truly bankrupt the Rich Young Ruler was spiritually. For all of his law-keeping, the Young Ruler was actually far from God. So, the story doesn't really teach that obedience is the key to eternal life (except in an OT dynamic with God) but that obedience can often conceal a wayward heart that desires other things more than God.

Luke 10:25-28 I already addressed in a earlier post. It doesn't actually support a works-salvation doctrine, as you think.

1 John 1:7 simply tells us what the Gospel tells us: that if we are not walking (living) in the light, that is, if we are not in Christ who is the Light (John 3:18-21; John 8:12; John 9:5), we have not yet been cleansed of our sin by his blood. Here, again, the key to salvation is in whom we live, not in what we do.

1 John 3:23 doesn't tell us that good deeds are salvific but that faith in Christ is. This is exactly what the apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God..." This verse, then, doesn't support works-salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 doesn't actually say, "Obedience to Christ saves you."

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Does this verse make obedience to the Author of Eternal Salvation, to Christ, the means of our eternal salvation? No. It merely describes those who are Christ's.

But, if you want to take it that the verse is indicating that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation, then the question is what obedience is in view? If Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 are true, then the obedience in view cannot be the obedience of good works, because these verses explicitly and directly rule out good works as salvific. It seems to me, then, that the obedience in view is the obedience of faith, of simply trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord (John 6:28-29; John 6:40). There is certainly nothing at all in the verse itself or its immediate context that would rule out such a reading.

Revelation 22:14 is an interesting verse. Some Bible translations have it as follows:

Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But a greater number of English translations translate the verse this way:

Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

The oldest manuscripts (Alexandrinus, Sinaiticus) have the latter version ("wash their robes") in Greek which agrees far more easily with Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 than does the Majority text (KJV) reading. How are one's "robes" washed? In the blood of the Lamb (1 John 1:7). And how is that cleansing accomplished? By exercising a saving faith in Christ. So, then, Revelations 22:14 is saying much the same thing as Hebrews 5:9: the right to the tree of life is by trusting in Christ. The verse is NOT saying that our good deeds contribute to our salvation.

What has happened here in my investigation of your proof texts is what has happened in every instance in the past when I have examined the Scripture references you cite. Your references all fail to support your false doctrine.



Nothing here that says that one's salvation depends upon one's obedience to God's commands.



Nothing in any of these verses, either, that indicates that good works are necessary to being saved...

This is my last post to you in this thread, Jason. My interest in continuing this discussion has thoroughly waned.

May God lead you to His truth. He's the only One, really, who can.

Click to expand...

If Jesus's words before the cross do not apply today, then how can He judge us on the last day (i.e. the Judgment) for not receiving His words? See John 12:48.

Bible Highlighter said:

This is just yet another ad hominem because there is no real defense for your belief with the Bible. You are imagining things. I was not abused as a child, neither physically or spiritually.

Click to expand...

So, you are your own origin for abusing others then. No excuse.

For you know way too many passages of Scripture for the Holy Spirit not to use you, and guide you into the truth of the matter as to build up others. Instead, you are only trying to tear down.

Whom do you serve?

Not, ad hominem. Facing the very facts you yourself you keep giving us to evaluate you with. We are commanded to 'test the spirits.' We can do that by seeing who keeps contradicting what we know is plainly said in Scripture.


"Shall lose none?" That means? When the time comes? He shall lose NONE. Zero

Dialoging with you is like playing demolition derby. Always tearing down. Always injecting distortions as to try to elicit doubt where there should be peace and reassurance. I can only see it as jealousy in your heart. For you have not received the inner witness of eternal security that must come from the Spirit. Not from man. Man distorts Scripture. God the Spirit opens eyes and seals hearts in Truth of blessed assurance.

Jealousy was the original sin. Satan was its pioneer. In the Law there were more requirements to deal with the sin of jealousy than any other sin mentioned..

Bible Highlighter said:

If Jesus's words before the cross do not apply today, then how can He judge us on the last day (i.e. the Judgment) for not receiving His words? See John 12:48.

Click to expand...

His words before the Cross mostly were said to Jews who were still living yet as Jews. Not to the new creation in Christ that was to come after He was glorified.

Those words said before the Cross are there to expose, or reveal, who is rightly handling the Word of God. To show who is walking in the Spirit, or walking in the energy of their flesh.




The Christian way of life requires the leading of the Spirit.. For those who took great pride in having a photographic memory?Now its potentially a means for being a curse.

The Spirit must cause our recall. We are to be taught well and learn constantly as much as we can.

Even for those who have a great memory. We all need to be careful. For demons seek out those whom to recruit. To supernaturally groom as to be used as a tool.

For its when we are weak then He is strong in us. If we take pride in, and cling to our natural strengths. Bible verse memory contests, perhaps..?

Bible Highlighter said:

No. He was wrong. He was suggesting that Jesus was referring Matthew 10:28 was said to unbelievers but no unbelievers were present.

Click to expand...

That is crazy. Is English your second language?

genez said:

So, you are your own origin for abusing others then. No excuse.

For you know way too many passages of Scripture for the Holy Spirit not to use you, and guide you into the truth of the matter as to build up others. Instead, you are only trying to tear down.

Whom do you serve?

Not, ad hominem. Facing the very facts you yourself you keep giving us to evaluate you with. We are commanded to 'test the spirits.' We can do that by seeing who keeps contradicting what we know is plainly said in Scripture.

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."​

"Shall lose none?" That means? When the time comes? He shall lose NONE. Zero

Dialoging with you is like playing demolition derby. Always tearing down. Always injecting distortions as to try to elicit doubt where there should be peace and reassurance. I can only see it as jealousy in your heart. For you have not received the inner witness of eternal security that must come from the Spirit. Not from man. Man distorts Scripture. God the Spirit opens eyes and seals hearts in Truth of blessed assurance.

Jealousy was the original sin. Satan was its pioneer. In the Law there were more requirements to deal with the sin of jealousy than any other sin mentioned..

Click to expand...

Sorry, you cannot use morals (like jealousy) as a part of your defense if you believe you can violate those very morals as a part of your belief system that teaches that a believer can sin and still be saved on some level (or that they do not lose their salvation if they do not confess and forsake their grievous sin) by having a belief alone on Jesus. If you believe that a saint can break God's laws as a part of salvation, then you cannot be in favor of the believer in actually keeping them in any way. You are either for the position of keeping of God's commands or you are not for keeping them. You cannot have it both ways, my friend.

As for John 6:37-39:

Well, John 6:37-40 says,

First, what does Jesus mean by,


Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,


However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,


John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40


John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:


And OSAS terminology:


Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

genez said:

That is crazy. Is English your second language?

Click to expand...

Please show me where in Matthew 10 where is says Jesus was talking to a crowd or a group of unbelievers. You will not find it. Jesus was talking with his disciples in the entire chapter (i.e. Matthew 10). I would encourage you to please re-read the chapter before you reply back to me here.