Why are Catholics and Orthodox treated differently by protestants?

GoingByzantine

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I've mentioned previously that I'm interested in trying a Greek Orthodox church in town (I'm LCMS Lutheran).

I have great respect for the EO and the RCC (Papal Supremacy is basically the loan issue for me to prevent me fully considering them), but how does the EO generally feel about Lutherans? I know the RCC says are Eucharist isn't valid and orders aren't valid, but haven't really found an EO position on it. Does the EO teach there's no salvation outside of the church (I know the RCC view is a little more nuanced than that simple statement)?

I know multiple Lutherans who converted to EO. None of them think their Lutheran family members and friends whom they left behind are "damned" or "unsaved" or anything like that. Orthodox don't usually think in such terms, especially in the West. As noted, only God can judge which people have earned salvation and which people have not, and this goes for people within and outside of the Orthodox Church. He is the ultimate judge over all of mankind.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you.

Are you referring to the role of works when speaking of cooperating?
Not specifically, no. But often our cooperation does happen through our "works".

Actually I should back up and first define "works". Some would say they include not only actions (or specific actions - as some would define) but also words, prayers, thoughts, reading Scripture, disposition, and so on. If you define "works" as broadly as that (everything we do in life) then the answer would have to be yes.

But if you mean we "work" to "earn" salvation in any way whatsoever, then absolutely not. There is nothing we could ever possibly do to merit salvation.

But the way we live - including everything we do, thoughts, words, deeds - shapes us as persons. And if we live in cooperation with God's grace, we allow Him to transform us to be like Christ.

I think Lutherans would agree on many points? But I've encountered an insistence on passivity and monergism from them that we can't quite agree on.
 
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TKA_TN

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Not specifically, no. But often our cooperation does happen through our "works".

Actually I should back up and first define "works". Some would say they include not only actions (or specific actions - as some would define) but also words, prayers, thoughts, reading Scripture, disposition, and so on. If you define "works" as broadly as that (everything we do in life) then the answer would have to be yes.

But if you mean we "work" to "earn" salvation in any way whatsoever, then absolutely not. There is nothing we could ever possibly do to merit salvation.

But the way we live - including everything we do, thoughts, words, deeds - shapes us as persons. And if we live in cooperation with God's grace, we allow Him to transform us to be like Christ.

I think Lutherans would agree on many points? But I've encountered an insistence on passivity and monergism from them that we can't quite agree on.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, personally. We have to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," as St. Paul states.

Lutherans hold to a monergistic salvation and synergistic damnation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Lutherans hold to a monergistic salvation and synergistic damnation.

I'm curious about this.

By the way, we sometimes say we are "saved together, and condemned alone" but that's something else. It just came to mind.

This isn't the place for me to ask you about your statement though - to explain it would be a breach of forum rules. Do you mind if I quote it and ask the question in the Lutheran forum?

I've struggled to understand the "conundrum" of Lutheranism that one can be responsible to reject salvation, but not responsible to accept it? (Greatly oversimplified I know.)
 
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mothcorrupteth

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Is this talking about Rosie Q's comment on Chalcedon? I wasn't upset or insulted by it (nor by Andrewn's comment, or anyone's really; I'm a guest here...what business do I have being insulted by anyone's opinion on a board that is not meant to represent my communion in the first place?). It's a common enough belief about Chalcedon, and one that I've encountered even among some in my communion (well, less that it was all political, but along the same lines of "it doesn't matter that much/we should just get over it for the sake of unity"), and that's why I felt that I should add my voice on that topic here, because it's entirely possible that others more generally (I don't know this specific poster) may have heard some similar from someone OO somewhere. So I just wanted to say that, no, Chalcedon was not primarily about politics, and it is possible to agree with the statement that Fr. Matt wrote as he wrote it and still be entirely faithful to your own communion's position on the subject.

None of this is meant as an insult to anyone who thinks it is primarily political, just a corrective to a common and well-meaning but ultimately untrue sentiment. After all, you'd think that if I as a non-Chalcedonian could make that argument in good conscience then I would, right? It would probably 'look better' to the inquisitive person who doesn't want to pass judgment on anyone, in the sense of seeming to take a higher road than those who are still stuck on Chalcedon and insisting that there is substance behind the disagreement, all this many years later. But in reality, as you can tell by the fact that we OO have not 'just gotten over it' as a group (certain individuals, sure, but you're always going to get that in any group), there's more to it than is commonly assumed by those who are not involved in it directly. That is why I had the reaction that I did to Andrewn's suggestion about getting an outside mediator. It's understandable that maybe getting a pair of fresh eyes on the subject would be advantageous, but not only is it literally not possible to find such a person (read: with the technical exception of the Nestorians, since they left communion with the other churches before it was held, everyone of a preexisting church of any kind is, by their association with their particular church and not necessarily by their personal feelings towards or level of knowledge about the council, either a Chalcedonian or a non-Chalcedonian, as Chalcedon is a fact of history and we are all born into the world as it is, not as we would've liked it to have been over fifteen centuries before we were born), but in this case by being qualified to at least appear neutral, you'd be virtually guaranteed to be dealing with a person who is predisposed to the view that there's less to it than either side says that there is. (Read: they're either going to be an out-and-out Chalcedonian without realizing it, like most Protestants, and hence not neutral at all to begin with, or they're going to look at all of the stuff surrounding it and discount whatever does not seem to be relevant to them because they don't know what they're actually looking at and what it means in the context of the wider points made by both sides regarding why they accepted/rejected the council in the first place. This is very much unlike an impartial judge in either case, which I would assume kind of defeats the purpose of trying to get an outsider to look at it.)
Well, it was really about most people's comments, but yours was one of more kindly worded ones, which is part of why I expressed reluctance at casting you as "on my side." You are a guest here, but you are such a regular and well-behaved guest that I think of you as part of the family.

This thread was started back in February and was originally about Baptists' dislike for Catholics and Orthodox. It hasn't evolved to accommodate those who admire and learn from the ancient way.
Perhaps so, but does pointing it out bring you any closer to what you want? I never want to be seen as promoting rank ecumenism, but I want you want, here.
 
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TKA_TN

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I'm curious about this.

By the way, we sometimes say we are "saved together, and condemned alone" but that's something else. It just came to mind.

This isn't the place for me to ask you about your statement though - to explain it would be a breach of forum rules. Do you mind if I quote it and ask the question in the Lutheran forum?

I've struggled to understand the "conundrum" of Lutheranism that one can be responsible to reject salvation, but not responsible to accept it? (Greatly oversimplified I know.)

Go right ahead. Thank you.
 
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dzheremi

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Wow. Thanks, you guys. I don't really consider myself as anything relative to anyone else or anyone else's communion (we're similar to you guys in that way, I think: if it's outside of the Church, then it's outside of the Church, so what can we really say one way or another? Beyond making sure our people don't become so 'open-minded' that their brains fall out, we usually try to stay silent). I'm just here because nobody goes to the OO subforum except to ask about Chalcedon and try to argue against the OO faith, and that's boring and annoying. Hence I only try to interject here when I can support what an EO person like Fr. Matt is already saying about something that also involves us, unfortunately including Chalcedon, because if I don't people might get the wrong impression about my communion since nobody's around to say otherwise. The second an actual OO priest or whoever has the authority to talk shows up and actually sticks around, I'm gone. Hahaha.
 
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