Are you saved or delusional?

Bible Highlighter said:

The conditions are from God, and they are not human conditions alone as your post suggests. The conditions are between God and man. You can check out this recent post here (within this thread) for some conditions I have already listed.

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redleghunter said:

Where does it say a believer in Christ loses his salvation in those passages. John contrasts light and darkness. Those in darkness are not of the Light. Why do you continue to apply your eisegesis to the Scriptures. You do violence to the Word of God by reading in your pet theories.

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redleghunter said:

Show me in the Holy Scriptures what the requirements of man are for salvation. I'm not going to entertain verse rodeo here. You should be able to point me to entire passages, chapters and even epistles where this is laid out. I'm trying to gain an understanding of what you understand the New Covenant is.

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redleghunter said:

Ok let's visit the entire passage. The passage differentiates between sheep and non-sheep. Only the sheep follow Jesus.

John 10: NASB
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.​

Jesus established here that He was the one and only Shepherd. The sheep follow Jesus because they hear and know His voice. continuing with John chapter 10:

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.​

Jesus once again establishing He is the Shepherd and now the door of the sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”​

Jesus showing again that He knows the sheep, they "My own" know Him and He lays down His life for the sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:

19A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” ​

A division among the Jews occurred and some question Jesus if He is the Christ. The above sets up the response where Jesus differentiates between sheep and non-sheep. Continuing with John 10:

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. ​

They don't believe Jesus nor the works He does in the Father's Name. They don't believe because they are not of His sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:

27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”​

In verses 27-29 there are only sheep. These sheep hear the Voice of Christ, He knows them and they follow Him. They will never perish and no one will snatch them out of His Hand. The Father gives them to Him. This is straight forward and concrete. There is no "if the sheep follow me." There are no other sheep. There are sheep and non-sheep. Jesus makes is concrete and clear the sheep hear Him, He knows them, they follow Him, and they will never perish.

Jesus' discourse on the Shepherd and Sheep in John chapter 10 is not the first place we see that all who are given by the Father to the Son will not perish but have eternal life:

John 6: NASB

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”​

Once again, straight forward and concrete. All the Father gives to Jesus will not be cast out and Jesus will lose nothing. A very powerful Trinitarian statement there too.

Jesus builds on the "lose none" "never perish" when speaking intimately with His apostles:

John 15: NASB

15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.​

Apostolic teachings also confirm this relationship and this Grace of God:

Romans 8: NASB

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?​

You can "what if" the Inspired Words of God out of context all you want, but never be able to change them.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Let's take it one step at a time.
What does walk in the light mean in 1 John 1:7?
Do you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin?

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Bible Highlighter said:

You have to believe, and obey the gospel to be saved.

What is the gospel (i.e. the good news)?

The gospel:

The gospel is believing Christ died for our sins, believing He was buried, and that He rose again on the third day (according to the Scriptures). But we also have to obey the gospel (according to Scripture), too.


What is obeying the gospel (i.e. the good news)?

Well, the Bible refers to three places about “not obeying the gospel.” All three places within the Bible that talk about “not obeying the gospel” are used in an unfavorable light. For they refer to the Lord condemning anyone who does not “obey the gospel” (Romans 10:16) (2 Thessalonians 1:8) (1 Peter 4:17). In fact, if you were to stop and think for a moment, “obeying” is different than “believing.” Therefore, one must also obey the gospel and not just believe it alone. Can this line of thinking be supported with Scripture? Yes, absolutely.

Examples of “obedience to the faith” (Romans 16:26) can be seen in Hebrews 11 (Which is the great hall of faith chapter of God’s people). What is interesting is that this chapter is not about uplifting how men of God can sin and still be saved, but is about uplifting men of God obeying God after they had believed. This makes sense because James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). This is not about just doing good works while a believer also sins while they have a belief on Jesus. For Jesus did not accept those believers who did wonderful works and yet they also worked sin or iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Note on 1 Thessalonians 1:8: Those who do not know God do not keep his commandments; For that person who says they knows the Lord and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (See 1 John 2:4).

We know the gospel is believing in Christ’s death and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (1 Corinthians 15:11) (Romans 1:16).

But obeying is clearly different than simply believing. A place where we see in the Bible an example of obeying the gospel is in Romans chapter 6.

We can obey the “death of Christ” aspect of the gospel:

Verse 4 talks about how we are buried into Christ’s death by baptism.

This is “spirit baptism” (verses 3-4) (i.e. being baptized into the Spirit). How so? Well, there is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), and being “spirit baptized” into Jesus Christ can be seen in Acts of the Apostles 19:1-6 with Paul baptizing (in the name of Jesus) certain disciples in Ephesus by the laying on of hands (and not by water baptism). We also learn that accepting the gospel can also lead to one being spirit baptized (See Acts of the Apostles 10:42-45). Acts of the Apostles 3:19 says “repent and be converted.” (Note: Repentance is seeking forgiveness of one’s sins with the Lord; See: Matthew 3:6, Matthew 3:8, Mark 1:4-5, Acts of the Apostles 8:22, etc.). This means that if a person comes to the Lord for the first time they are converted or given a new heart with new desires (i.e. we are born again spiritually) and in many cases they can receive the Holy Ghost as a gift at this point. Verse 5 talks about this spirit baptism as being planted together in the likeness of his death. Verse 6 says that the old man is crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed.

Seeking God’s mercy is at the heart of putting away unrighteousness. For it is written: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).


We can obey the “resurrection of Christ” aspect of the gospel:

So as Christ was raise from the dead, so we must also should walk in newness of life. Is this essential to salvation? Yes.

Romans 8:13 says,

“For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

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Bible Highlighter said:

So you are not a Calvinist? If you are not a Calvinist, then do you believe in Eternal Security?

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redleghunter said:

Because the perseverance and preservation of the saints is Biblical.

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redleghunter said:

I see you won't answer the question.

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redleghunter said:

There's the problem with your approach. You isolate one verse and then make it contingent on your theory.

Here's the passage:

1 John 1: NASB

1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

Once again a concrete and straightforward statement by the Apostle John. You isolated verse 7 which then you doubled down and say "what does the light mean in 1 John 1:7. Back up the bus and see verse 5 and verse 6. John makes a distinction. If one walks in darkness, meaning not in Christ Who is the Light, we lie and do not practice truth. Verse 7 says if we walk in the Light as Jesus is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin.

There is no partial light. There is no walk in the light and then walk in darkness and back to light and back again. John is making a clear and concrete statement. We are either in the Light or we are not. We either have the calling and sure Hope that is in Christ or we don't. Very interesting as this is what Jesus communicated in John 10. We are either His sheep or we are not. There are no "types of sheep" but only sheep. We are either children of Light or children of darkness. Which the Apostle Paul confirms here:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

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Bible Highlighter said:

In 1 John 3,

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Bible Highlighter said:

Now, before you say "practice sin" (as some Modern Translations falsely assert) suggesting that a person is not a murderer unless they keep murdering, the Bible says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer (See: Numbers 35:16-18).

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redleghunter said:

What you quoted just confirms what I have been posting. One is either a child of God or not. Very concrete and straightforward. What the text does not say, but you are saying, is a child of God can become a child of the devil instantaneously based on some standards you have created.

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You said:

Actually what you are suggesting is children of God do not sin at all. That one sin makes us children of wrath "again." None of your proof texting can come up with evidence for this. As laid out in the NT consistently, we are either His sheep or we are not. We are either sealed by the Holy Spirit or we are not. What is certain from the NT is Jesus Himself said not one of His sheep would perish.

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You said:

Also, it does not take 'one murder' or even several, but just being angry with your brother.

Matthew 5: NASB

21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.​

How does your law approach handle that one?

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Bible Highlighter said:

Okay, your not getting it.

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Bible Highlighter said:

John 10:27 says the sheep FOLLOW Jesus.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Do you think there are times that believers who believe like you, are not following Jesus sometimes?

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Bible Highlighter said:

I mean, what about those times when a person sins?

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Bible Highlighter said:

Are they following Jesus if they are in a state of sin?

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Bible Highlighter said:

What if your telling others that future sin is forgiven them makes them think they can sin as much as you like?

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Bible Highlighter said:

Would not God look to you for teaching them something like that?

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Bible Highlighter said:

Verse 39 in the KJV says "I SHOULD lose nothing."
The word "should" is not a guarantee last time I understood that word.

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Bible Highlighter said:

As for the passage in Romans 8:

You should also read Romans 8:13.

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genez said:

Matthew 10:28 New International Version

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."​

Some people suffer with tunnel vision. They see an isolated verse. And, only that verse.

Then they imagine what it means. Then begin pushing their interpretation on others!

What does all of Matthew chapter 10 talk about that leads up to verse 28?


THAT'S THE CONTEXT!!!




Jesus was just telling his disciples how there were going to be facing mean and cruel religious people persecuting and even killing those they despise.

That, his disciples should not fear them.

For the enemy can only kill the body. That they should fear God instead who is infinitely greater. For God can kill the soul and the body.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

That threat about killing the soul was not directed to his disciples.

Jesus words were spoken to show the fate of those who will oppose them when God's truth being proclaimed. For, unlike them that can only kill the body, God is going to destroy his enemies body and soul....

How stupid some are! They jump to conclusions and neglect the context. And, then act like they speak for God! Dumb and cruel is the result.

False teachers are never peace makers. "Peace maker" speaks of someone producing an inner peace in others. Not the insecurity and bondage, like false teachers just love to spread wherever they can.

The Bible when well understood is its own context.

Ignorance would make us to believe that God contradicts Himself. Not only do false teachers desire you to be confused about what is written. They want you to be CONFUSED ABOUT GOD. Its Satanic. For Satan was that way towards the angels when he led his rebellion.

Now... enjoy your Day.

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redleghunter said:

Oh, I got it alright. Not just buying what you are selling.

Yes of course ignore the rest of the passage and chapter. I have already pointed this out. You isolated a portion, actually the last portion, of a verse ignoring everything around it.

What do you think I believe? Are you assuming I fit your straw man?


What happens when you sin? or are you sinless? Did not Peter sin in denying Christ? How did Christ handle Peter's sin, an apostle Jesus chose and said "you are already clean?" Did not Jesus after His Resurrection convict Peter of his sin? Do you not believe we are "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory?" And as such a loving Father convicts of sin leading to repentence?

The only other option available to you other than the above is that we must be sinless while still in this flesh.



What exactly is a state of sin? How do you judge this?


Ah here it is. This is what paints your theology. A straw man argument. Who teaches this? Your church?

Something like what? Your straw man? No one teaches others they can sin as much as they like. You need to provide evidence of this. This really paints your entire false theology.


You are the second person on CF to make this statement. In effect, you have taken an imperative command of Christ and twisted in to that Jesus fails sometimes. Do you really want to go there?


Read the entire chapter and epistle if you would like. It does not negate, but supports what I quoted. Taking bits and pieces of verses to conjure up a rebuttal to an entire passage is characteristic of what we see someone doing in Genesis 3 and Matthew 4.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Not my standards at all.

The Bible says,

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:8).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

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Bible Highlighter said:

The sheep FOLLOW Jesus (verse 27). That is the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand (verse 28). A person who justifies that they can sin and still be saved on some level is not following Jesus because Jesus never once condoned or justified sin. The proof texts I use stand, unless you can explain them in light of your belief without changing what they like you do with the word "fear" in the Bible.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Actually, the KJV says to be in danger of these things. Being in danger of "Hell fire" is not mentioned, until one calls their brother a fool. But yes, a person can be in danger of the judgment if they are angry at their brother. Why? Because if anger leads to hate, and one hates their brother, no eternal life abides in them according to 1 John 3:15.

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redleghunter said:

You missed the point. Concrete and distinct. One is either a child of light or not. It does not flow back and forth with the tick of the clock. We are either children of God being conformed to the image of Christ or we are not. There is no grey area here for purity movements to snatch people away in fear from the Gospel.


No, the entire passage makes absolutely no claim of "kind of sheep." Once again concrete. Jesus said one was either His sheep or not a sheep. There are no kinds of sheep in the text. You once again add to the text to fit your eisegesis.

Why is it so difficult to take Jesus's words for their clarity and strength? Why is it so difficult to comprehend that those sheep the Father gives to Jesus will hear His voice, will know Him and will follow Him?


I think you missed the point. Our thoughts, not only our actions, condemn us.

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redleghunter said:

I think you missed the point. Our thoughts, not only our actions, condemn us.

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Bible Highlighter said:

This is simply you desiring to see something in the text that is not there. The context of Matthew 10 is Jesus talking to his believers before they are sent out. There is no mention of unbelievers present of which Jesus was talking to. Jesus was not speaking to an unbelieving crowd here. Matthew 10:28 is spoken to his disciples because only his disciples were present (according to the context). Any person can read the chapter right now and see that your statement that Jesus was talking to unbelievers in reference to Matthew 10:28 is simply not true. Jesus was not speaking to a crowd in Matthew 10. Read the chapter again.

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