Are you saved or delusional?

redleghunter

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Perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18).
We can perfect love by keeping His Word (1 John 2:5).
1 John 2:5 is in context to keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3-4).
Ecclesiastes 12:13 is in your Bible for a reason, and it should apply to your life in some way today and it should not be ignored or thrown out.
Yes none of those references teach having a fear of loss of salvation. In fact I pointed out in Hebrews 12 the difference of God’s approach in the New Covenant.

I asked a few times about this fear of God and how one obtains it. You didn’t touch that one.

Here’s the answer with regards to the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. 41“I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.


And again here:

Ezekiel 36: NASB


22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”
 
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redleghunter

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Scripture has to be read in balance with other verses.
The promises are true if we meet the conditions of those promises.
I have seen absolutely no exegesis in your posts. Just plucked verses packaged together which creates a pretext which leads to contradictions.
 
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A far stretch. If he was belief onlyism he would not spend a dime or minute preaching purity.

Not at all. Belief Alone Proponents believe that works deal with a loss of rewards, and they have been known from time to time preach on holy living in this way. They also can appear to be for holy living as the Bible teaches, but they really are not for that if they are saying you can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is the majority of the Belief Alone Proponents out there). They preach a contradiction. They say you have to generally live holy or not practice a sinful lifestyle (Which is never defined in terms of how many times one can sin), and yet they also say that a believer is saved if they die in one or two unconfessed grievous sins (like lusting, lying, hating, etc.). For they believe no sin can separate them from GOD. They also say they will never overcome grievous sin in this life. So they are justifying some kind of small amount of sin on some kind of level. But again, they will appear to be for holiness at times (When they really are not).

You would have to find an article that says that Joshua changed his beliefs and he believed in Works Salvationism by his books. If not, then he really did not change all that much except for the fact that he preached man directed holiness as per His Belief Alone-ism System (that was taught to him by men, and not the Bible).

You mentioned Luther and I put him in context. Reading and understanding the Bible is what Luther devoted his entire life to. We do well to examine what our forebears wrote. LOL I'm not going to handle that one. He was taken out of context. Do you really believe he was encouraging people to sin?

People try to defend Luther, but if you were to read up on that man's life, it is pretty bad. Sure, it is possible the RCC may have made things up about him; I really don't know if everything written bad in regards to Luther is true or not. The point here is that it is pretty agreed upon that Luther said "sin boldly" and the context of these words say, "the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. " Pretty sick, if you ask me. Jesus said to "sin no more" (John 5:14) (John 8:11) (Which is the opposite of Luther's statements here). Try preaching Luther's whole paragraph at your church and see what they say. It is disgusting, and a person can easily take those words as meaning, "Go out and sin as much as you want because you have God's grace." There is no context of Luther saying, "Now, look, I was not really telling you to sin. My point here is this....[He describes]."

You said:
Oh I see the entire passage just fine.

I am sorry. No you don't see it. Verse 27 says the kind of sheep (mentioned in verse 28) here are the sheep that FOLLOW Him.

You said:
His sheep hear his voice (that's first), He knows them (that seems to be second), and they follow Him.

It does not say the sheep follow Him and by following He knows them and by knowing them, they hear. It's completely the opposite.

I did not say anything about listening and knowing the Lord in this passage. My point that you fail to understand is that the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus are the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out His hand. That is the condition. If we are not listening, knowing, and following (obeying) Jesus, then we do not meet the conditions of being snatched out of his hand as per verses 27-28. If a believer stops following Jesus (i.e. They do not obey Him anymore on some level), they are no longer following Jesus but they are following themselves and their own sin. It can even be just one grievous sin like lying on occasion or justifying a belief that gives a person a safety net to sin every once in a while. Any kind of justification of sin is not a following of Jesus because our Lord did not justify sin.

You said:
Yeah you left out everything in-between. But I caught you on that.

*Sigh* When a person adds an ellipsis to a verse and space inbetween, it is a dead ringer that they are doing so as means to highlight those words with that verse or passage. It is not a means to eliminate God's Word, but it is merely a quoting of the words that I wanted you to see. I was not negating the other words in any way. I was merely HIGHLIGHTING (Hence, why my username is called "Bible Highligher") so that you could see where I am coming from. Yes, I am not in disagreement that we need to hear his voice and that we are to know Him. But if you were to re-read 1 John 2:3-4 (more closely), you would realize that the way we KNOW the Lord is if find that we are keeping His commandments, but the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. So knowing GOD and keeping His commandments are synonymous; And a person cannot have eternal life without abiding in the Son (See 1 John 5:12).

You said:
It means a lot more than obedience, a whole lot more.

Then we should be in agreement that the condition of verse 28 in not being snatched out of his hand is to meet the condition of hearing his voice, knowing Him, and in FOLLOWING (obeying, etc.) Jesus Christ.

This means that if one is not truly obeying Jesus and His commands, they can be snatched out of his hand.

Anyways, if you believe the word "follow" means more than obedience, then please enlighten the rest of us here.

In any event, may the Lord's goodness be upon you (even if we disagree on the Bible strongly).

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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Yes none of those references teach having a fear of loss of salvation.

Yes, they do. In John's 1st epistle in chapter 2, he talks about how if we do not love our brother we walk in darkness (See: 1 John 2:9-11). In 1 John 3, we learn that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Believers fear God and therefore they keep His commandments (See Ecclesiastes 12:13 again).

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3).

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." (1 John 5:19).

Yet, when I talk with the Eternal Security Proponent sometimes they say the sin multiple times in a day and magically they say they are still saved by having a belief on Jesus. How are they different or separate (holy) from the world that lies in wickedness?

You said:
In fact I pointed out in Hebrews 12 the difference of God’s approach in the New Covenant.

The point is never made that God is eliminating fear altogether. That would mean that God has changed in His character of who is. That is not possible. It is merely talking about the revealing of the awesomeness of God and how that scared sinful men. We are not in that situation or place where God is revealing Himself whereby we are exposed to His holiness. The Lord approaches in a different way, but it is still with us having a godly fear.

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Hebrews 12:28).

You want fear to be like "reverence" and stuff. But here we see in Hebrews 12:28 that reverence and Godly fear are separated.

Again, Matthew 10:28 says that Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One (Himself) who can destroy both body and soul in Genenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So yeah, you have to read the whole counsel of God's Word, and not only those verses you prefer to focus a laser beam on.

You said:
I asked a few times about this fear of God and how one obtains it. You didn’t touch that one.

Here’s the answer with regards to the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. 41“I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.


And again here:

Ezekiel 36: NASB


22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

It's talking about Israel's final repentance (before the Lord shortly returns with the 2nd coming), and their eventual entrance into the Millennium.

Jeremiah 32:41 says, "I will plant them in this land "

Believers who are beheaded for Christ will live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and those believers who had the land promise (like Abraham) will live again and be planted in "this land" (i.e. Jerusalem).

Speaking of Israel, Ezekiel 36 says,

"And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:28).

God cannot say currently of Israel's spiritual situation that "ye shall be my people, and I will be your God" yet.

So this has not happened yet for Israel. They need to be driven to the wall to recognize their Messiah by the 7 year tribulation. They will have the fear of the Lord put in them by all the horrible stuff coming upon them in the End Times. As a result of them fearing God (by all the bad things happening in the End Times) they will repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord), and God will then give them a new heart, and to keep His commandments. This not talking about some kind of Calvinistic forced fear being placed inside believers. Besides, you really do not believe in fear in the sense of losing salvation. That is what the fear of the Lord means. To fear God is explained in Matthew 10:28. Go back and read that verse again very slowly.
 
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I have seen absolutely no exegesis in your posts. Just plucked verses packaged together which creates a pretext which leads to contradictions.

Because you are reading those verses with Calvinistic glasses. Put down those Calvinistic books, for a while and just read your Bible. Just read and believe the Bible plainly, and do not seek to change what the Bible says like trying to change the word "fear" to not mean "fear," etc.
 
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Because you are reading those verses with Calvinistic glasses. Put down those Calvinistic books, for a while and just read your Bible. Just read and believe the Bible plainly, and do not seek to change what the Bible says like trying to change the word "fear" to not mean "fear," etc.

You don’t accept God’s glorious free gift of eternal life as stated plainly in the Word, and you turn every lovely word associated with it on its ear. "What that really means is..."
or "We’ll that’s all well and good but let’s get back to fear/damnation/loss of salvation/etc..."

Follow your own advice, sir.
 
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You don’t accept God’s glorious free gift of eternal life as stated plainly in the Word, and you turn every lovely word associated with it on its ear. "What that really means is..."
or "We’ll that’s all well and good but let’s get back to fear/damnation/loss of salvation/etc..."

Follow your own advice, sir.

I accepted the free gift of Jesus Christ just fine, but I realize like all gifts in life, there are conditions attached in me keeping that gift. If a man receives a wife from the Lord (and he considers her as a gift from GOD), that does not mean he can cheat on her with him expecting that she would want to stay with him. It is no different with GOD. If a believer spits in the face of GOD by sinning, they are showing that they really do not love GOD and they are not really faithful (i.e. faith) to Him. They are only faithful to their own selves and their own sin. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other.

Anyways, if we want to do some reading in the Bible today, I would encourage you to check out the following list of veres very carefully.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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I accepted the free gift of Jesus Christ just fine, but I realize like all gifts in life, there are conditions attached in me keeping that gift. If a man receives a wife from the Lord (and he considers her as a gift from GOD), that does not mean he can cheat on her with him expecting that she would want to stay with him. It is no different with GOD. If a believer spits in the face of GOD by sinning, they are showing that they really do not love GOD and they are not really faithful (i.e. faith) to Him. They are only faithful to their own selves and their own sin. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other.

Anyways, if we want to do some reading in the Bible today, I would encourage you to check out the following list of veres very carefully.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Satan is a master at Scripture quoting...out of context and divorced form the Spirit who gives it meaning and life. When one knows the Word, they can tell when it's being wrested and twisted.

You're spamming me with verses is pointless. I know every Scripture in your list from memory, and many of the letters they come from intimately. This does not make me an expert but it protects me from those who distort His Word (and especially try to minimize His free gift and grace).
 
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Satan is a master at Scripture quoting...out of context and divorced form the Spirit who gives it meaning and life. When one knows the Word, they can tell when it's being wrested and twisted.

One of the first lies of the devil was in the Garden of Eden. He tried to convince Eve that she could break God's command and not die. This same lie is being pushed by the devil today. People are saying you can break God's commands and not die.

God said to Adam, that in the day he would eat of the wrong tree, he would die. But Adam did not physically die that day, but He died spiritually. Remember, he had to eat of the tree of life in order to live forever, but God prevented Adam in eating of that tree that would give him immortality. So Adam and Eve died spiritually the day that he ate of the wrong tree, and he needed to be restored back to God spiritually. The same thing can happen to us.

You said:
You're spamming me with verses is pointless. I know every Scripture in your list from memory, and many of the letters they come from intimately. This does not make me an expert but it protects me from those who distort His Word (and especially try to minimize His free gift and grace).

Spamming you with verses? Really? For me God's Word is a delight when I see it, and I do not consider it to be intrusive like spam advertisements of things that I do not want. If you are truly familiar with the verses I gave you, then you should be able to take a few of them and explain them for me (from the perspective of your belief). Because for me, they contradict your belief big time.
 
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redleghunter

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I am sorry. No you don't see it. Verse 27 says the kind of sheep (mentioned in verse 28) here are the sheep that FOLLOW Him.
Ok let's visit the entire passage. The passage differentiates between sheep and non-sheep. Only the sheep follow Jesus.

John 10: NASB
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
Jesus established here that He was the one and only Shepherd. The sheep follow Jesus because they hear and know His voice. continuing with John chapter 10:

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
Jesus once again establishing He is the Shepherd and now the door of the sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Jesus showing again that He knows the sheep, they "My own" know Him and He lays down His life for the sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:


19A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

A division among the Jews occurred and some question Jesus if He is the Christ. The above sets up the response where Jesus differentiates between sheep and non-sheep. Continuing with John 10:

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

They don't believe Jesus nor the works He does in the Father's Name. They don't believe because they are not of His sheep. Continuing with John chapter 10:

27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”


In verses 27-29 there are only sheep. These sheep hear the Voice of Christ, He knows them and they follow Him. They will never perish and no one will snatch them out of His Hand. The Father gives them to Him. This is straight forward and concrete. There is no "if the sheep follow me." There are no other sheep. There are sheep and non-sheep. Jesus makes is concrete and clear the sheep hear Him, He knows them, they follow Him, and they will never perish.

Jesus' discourse on the Shepherd and Sheep in John chapter 10 is not the first place we see that all who are given by the Father to the Son will not perish but have eternal life:

John 6: NASB

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


Once again, straight forward and concrete. All the Father gives to Jesus will not be cast out and Jesus will lose nothing. A very powerful Trinitarian statement there too.

Jesus builds on the "lose none" "never perish" when speaking intimately with His apostles:

John 15: NASB

15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.

Apostolic teachings also confirm this relationship and this Grace of God:

Romans 8: NASB

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


You can "what if" the Inspired Words of God out of context all you want, but never be able to change them.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, they do. In John's 1st epistle in chapter 2, he talks about how if we do not love our brother we walk in darkness (See: 1 John 2:9-11). In 1 John 3, we learn that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Where does it say a believer in Christ loses his salvation in those passages. John contrasts light and darkness. Those in darkness are not of the Light. Why do you continue to apply your eisegesis to the Scriptures. You do violence to the Word of God by reading in your pet theories.
 
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redleghunter

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It's talking about Israel's final repentance (before the Lord shortly returns with the 2nd coming), and their eventual entrance into the Millennium.

Jeremiah 32:41 says, "I will plant them in this land "

Believers who are beheaded for Christ will live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and those believers who had the land promise (like Abraham) will live again and be planted in "this land" (i.e. Jerusalem).
God speaks of the new covenant. You believe there will be another covenant replacing the new covenant?
 
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redleghunter

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The point is never made that God is eliminating fear altogether. That would mean that God has changed in His character of who is. That is not possible. It is merely talking about the revealing of the awesomeness of God and how that scared sinful men. We are not in that situation or place where God is revealing Himself whereby we are exposed to His holiness. The Lord approaches in a different way, but it is still with us having a godly fear.
Dude address the text please:

Hebrews 12: NASB

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

What changed from Sinai to Zion? This is a softball question.
 
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redleghunter

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Because you are reading those verses with Calvinistic glasses.
I don't have "Calvinist books or glasses." I just don't take a Ginsu knife to Scriptures to proof text a pet theology. Compiling verses to fit your theme is called eisegesis. You can't even coherently put together a passage to prove your point. You just jump to another out of context verse. This is not how to do Bible study nor systematic theology. What you are posting is inconsistent and incoherent.
 
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redleghunter

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I accepted the free gift of Jesus Christ just fine, but I realize like all gifts in life, there are conditions attached in me keeping that gift.
Then you should be able to lay out the human conditions of the New Covenant.
 
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Then you should be able to lay out the human conditions of the New Covenant.

The conditions are from God, and they are not human conditions alone as your post suggests. The conditions are between God and man. You can check out this recent post here (within this thread) for some conditions I have already listed.
 
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I don't have "Calvinist books or glasses." I just don't take a Ginsu knife to Scriptures to proof text a pet theology. Compiling verses to fit your theme is called eisegesis. You can't even coherently put together a passage to prove your point. You just jump to another out of context verse. This is not how to do Bible study nor systematic theology. What you are posting is inconsistent and incoherent.

I can say the same for you, but the proof in the pudding is in what the Bible actually says plainly (without changing words like "fear" etc.).

So you are not a Calvinist? If you are not a Calvinist, then do you believe in Eternal Security? If you do not believe in Eternal Security, do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unconfessed grievous sins (like: hating, lying, and or lusting, etc.) and still be saved? If so, then what verses teach you such a thing?
 
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I’m not failing to understand any of those verses, nor am I failing to believe them. They have a context and were never meant to adorn your pet theology.

Your theology DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF GRACE, but instead picks at it and tries to nullify it with Scripture. God didn’t send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him!

(Here's where you might insert, "Now, what He means here by 'the world' is...Whta he means here by 'save' is...Oh, now let me tell you about this wonderful word CONDEMN!")
 
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Dude address the text please:

Hebrews 12: NASB

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

What changed from Sinai to Zion? This is a softball question.

I already addressed it.

I said,

"The point is never made that God is eliminating fear altogether. That would mean that God has changed in His character of who is. That is not possible. It is merely talking about the revealing of the awesomeness of God and how that scared sinful men. We are not in that situation or place where God is revealing Himself whereby we are exposed to His holiness. The Lord approaches in a different way, but it is still with us having a godly fear.

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Hebrews 12:28).

You want fear to be like "reverence" and stuff. But here we see in Hebrews 12:28that reverence and Godly fear are separated.

Again, Matthew 10:28 says that Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One (Himself) who can destroy both body and soul in Genenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So yeah, you have to read the whole counsel of God's Word, and not only those verses you prefer to focus a laser beam on." by: ~ Bible Highlighter.
Why are you not addressing what I wrote above here?
 
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I’m not failing to understand any of those verses, nor am I failing to believe them. They have a context and were never meant to adorn your pet theology.

Your theology DOES NOT MAGNIFY THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF GRACE, but instead picks at it and tries to nullify it with Scripture. God didn’t send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him!

(Here's where you might insert, "Now, what He means here by 'the world' is...Whta he means here by 'save' is...Oh, now let me tell you about this wonderful word CONDEMN!")

Let's take it one step at a time.
What does walk in the light mean in 1 John 1:7?
Do you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin?
 
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