At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church?

Peter J Barban

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This is an awkward title but allow me to explain. The Catholic opinion is that they are the results of the early church. That's easy to understand.

But as a Protestant, I put my faith in the Bible while rejecting the current Catholic Church. At what point can Protestants, especially Evangelicals say the early church took a critical misstep/ a final misstep which inevitably led to the Reformation.

I am not looking for condescending answers, please. I am seeling calm rational answers only.
 
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I would say in examining history (forgive me, I don't wish to be offensive to anyone here) -

In considering some of the things Luther particularly objected to, especially including indulgences and the overarching authority of the Pope, for example, if these things are compared to the early (unified) Church, you can see disagreements within that early Church building.

Rome began to believe she held an authority the rest of the Church rejected. And Rome also believed in a certain development of doctrine that the rest of the Church held to be innovation. Rome had had a rocky history due to such issues for several centuries but the date usually recognized as her split with the other ancient sees is 1054.

From the point of view of the others, it is those two main issues that caused Rome to go into error. A major expression of these was the unilateral addition of the Filioque to the Nicene-Constantinople Creed by Rome. The reformers were largely cut off from the other sees. There was some correspondence but it progressed too slowly, and Luther seems to have been set on a few particular doctrines of his own so that his eventual break with Catholicism was not a return to the others but the creation of a new group.
 
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Ah, I just read your title. It seems to ask a slightly different question. Protestants in varying degrees would disagree with certain aspects of the early Church (though in fact almost every group thinks they have remade the early Church ... however they interpret or imagine that Church to be is how they create themselves). Reading of the Apostolic Fathers and early documents (such as the Didache - the Teaching of the 12 Apostles) will give more explanation in some cases of Scripture interpretation and show more clearly some of how the early Church operated.

Among Protestants, the conservative Anglicans and Lutherans are closest to the early Church. The results of the "Radical Reformation" and the more modern denominations are generally further removed. Time appears to be a factor as changes usually multiply (which makes sense as things are further reinterpreted), so the beginning of each denomination generally shows how different they are likely to be from the early Church.
 
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redleghunter

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This is an awkward title but allow me to explain. The Catholic opinion is that they are the results of the early church. That's easy to understand.

But as a Protestant, I put my faith in the Bible while rejecting the current Catholic Church. At what point can Protestants, especially Evangelicals say the early church took a critical misstep/ a final misstep which inevitably led to the Reformation.

I am not looking for condescending answers, please. I am seeling calm rational answers only.
I have to say this is a matter of history no?

Good summaries here:

The History of the Reformation by R.C. Sproul

What Was the Reformation All About?
 
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Peter J Barban

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I would say in examining history (forgive me, I don't wish to be offensive to anyone here) -

In considering some of the things Luther particularly objected to, especially including indulgences and the overarching authority of the Pope, for example, if these things are compared to the early (unified) Church, you can see disagreements within that early Church building.

Rome began to believe she held an authority the rest of the Church rejected. And Rome also believed in a certain development of doctrine that the rest of the Church held to be innovation. Rome had had a rocky history due to such issues for several centuries but the date usually recognized as her split with the other ancient sees is 1054.

From the point of view of the others, it is those two main issues that caused Rome to go into error. A major expression of these was the unilateral addition of the Filioque to the Nicene-Constantinople Creed by Rome. The reformers were largely cut off from the other sees. There was some correspondence but it progressed too slowly, and Luther seems to have been set on a few particular doctrines of his own so that his eventual break with Catholicism was not a return to the others but the creation of a new group.
That would be fascinating alt-history if Luther led the Protestants to the Orthodox path.
 
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That would be fascinating alt-history if Luther led the Protestants to the Orthodox path.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

There was correspondence. But as I said it took too long and Luther was by that time set on a few points.
 
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Resha Caner

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At what point can Protestants, especially Evangelicals say the early church took a critical misstep/ a final misstep which inevitably led to the Reformation.

I also took the question in the title to mean something different. At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church? I would say never. Christianity is not about institutions and so I will never reject a Catholic individual as "you're not one of us". We should always hope for reconciliation of our divisions, unlikely as that may be.

Those who think theology is a settled matter and one just needs to check the boxes on a list misunderstand. Theology always has been and always will be a discussion. The discussion is an important part of a growing faith, and we shouldn't try to shut it down with declarations of finality.

With respect to the historical question, I don't think it can be definitively answered. Opinion will always differ on such matters. I prefer looking at it in the converse, and doing so has been the focus of my historical research. Rather than highlighting the divisions, I prefer to look for theological threads. For example, Luther's teaching on justification is central to our beliefs. Can I find historical examples that connect the dots from Luther back to Christ on that point? I think the answer is yes.
 
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tulipbee

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Ah, I just read your title. It seems to ask a slightly different question. Protestants in varying degrees would disagree with certain aspects of the early Church (though in fact almost every group thinks they have remade the early Church ... however they interpret or imagine that Church to be is how they create themselves). Reading of the Apostolic Fathers and early documents (such as the Didache - the Teaching of the 12 Apostles) will give more explanation in some cases of Scripture interpretation and show more clearly some of how the early Church operated.

Among Protestants, the conservative Anglicans and Lutherans are closest to the early Church. The results of the "Radical Reformation" and the more modern denominations are generally further removed. Time appears to be a factor as changes usually multiply (which makes sense as things are further reinterpreted), so the beginning of each denomination generally shows how different they are likely to be from the early Church.
would that be the UMC?
 
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Albion

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But as a Protestant, I put my faith in the Bible while rejecting the current Catholic Church. At what point can Protestants, especially Evangelicals say the early church took a critical misstep/ a final misstep which inevitably led to the Reformation.
It was a gradual process, as the Church of Rome progressively asserted itself. I suppose that we could mark the creation of the Papacy about 300+ years after Christ as one of the important early steps.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

There was correspondence. But as I said it took too long and Luther was by that time set on a few points.
What I mean is that until your post, I had never considered the option that Luther, if he lived elsewhere, could have turned the Reformation toward Orthodoxy. Although that is counter to history, it is an interesting hypothetical.
 
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Albion

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That is unlikely, however.

Luther, like most Western Europeans, had a limited familiarity with Orthodoxy. Some of the better-known parts of Orthodoxy--no Pope, no indulgences, for example--were known and in fact were used by Luther in the Leipzig debates.

But the idea that he would have found Orthodoxy to be acceptable if he had had a closer connection to it is not very convincing IMO.
 
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Resha Caner

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What I mean is that until your post, I had never considered the option that Luther, if he lived elsewhere, could have turned the Reformation toward Orthodoxy. Although that is counter to history, it is an interesting hypothetical.

It's fun to speculate about alternative history, but in this case I don't think it works.

First of all, some Protestants did turn to Orthodoxy. See, for example, Byzantine Rite Lutheranism. I've never done a study on it, but it seems common for frustrated Lutherans to turn to Orthodoxy. I, myself, was attracted to Orthodoxy for a time. There are many similarities ... and some important differences.

Second, one can't separate the rising nationalism in the West that prepared the ground for the Reformation. Not only were people seeking spiritual independence from the Catholic church, kings were seeking political independence, and the two went hand-in-hand. Frederick the Wise's support of Luther was crucial. That condition has never really existed within the Orthodox church. They were under the Byzantine emperor until 1453, and have more or less been a church in exile (under Ottoman rule and then a diaspora) ever since. One could easily argue the Orthodox Church has as many denominations as the West: Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian, Georgian, Serbian, etc.

Third, to think that Luther was bent on Reformation no matter what and would have done it anywhere would be to misunderstand Luther and his context. Luther was not alone in calling for changes in the Catholic church during that era, and there are indications the church hierarchy was seriously considering some changes independent of Luther's appeals. Further, Luther did not start out calling for reform as we think of it. His initial appeals were more a request for some academic discussion. It was only when the church came down with an iron fist that things moved in a more revolutionary direction.
 
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Albion

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would that be the UMC?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I didn't have the UMC in mind in any part of that discussion. Though in my personal experience, it happened to be a UMC fellowship that first opened my eyes to some aspects of the early Church. The service I attended was not typical of UMCs though.
 
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What I mean is that until your post, I had never considered the option that Luther, if he lived elsewhere, could have turned the Reformation toward Orthodoxy. Although that is counter to history, it is an interesting hypothetical.
Oh I see.

Yes things could have been very different. But there was still Calvin and Zwingli.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That is unlikely, however.

Luther, like most Western Europeans, had a limited familiarity with Orthodoxy. Some of the better-known parts of Orthodoxy--no Pope, no indulgences, for example--were known and in fact were used by Luther in the Leipzig debates.

But the idea that he would have found Orthodoxy to be acceptable if he had had a closer connection to it is not very convincing IMO.
It seems to me that Luther had some opinions that ran counter to Orthodoxy and in the end it just couldn't go that direction.

Perhaps real-time face-to-face conversation could have made a difference, because it would have taken a LOT of discussion. Or perhaps it wouldn't have after all. At any rate, given the correspondence we have and the development Luther was perhaps forced to go through within a vacuum and in reaction to Catholicism made it impossible, apparently.
 
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It was a gradual process, as the Church of Rome progressively asserted itself. I suppose that we could mark the creation of the Papacy about 300+ years after Christ as one of the important early steps.

What event or series of events do you have in mind when you write here about the Papacy being created 300+ years after Christ?

Asking for a friend in Alexandria... ;)
 
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