Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter · Jul 26, 2019

Resha Caner said:
You should try the app. When you backslide it gives you a little shock. It also provides a handy list of self-flagellation items you can buy on Amazon to keep yourself holy.

Not sure why that is needed. The fear of separation from God, His love, and punishment is more than enough of a motivator.

Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Do you actually believe you can be cleansed from at least grievous is of the flesh and spirit?

Please keep in mind that for the point of discussion (so we don’t talk about Sinless Perfection - which is not allowed in this section of the forums), I am going to refer to at least “grievous sin” in this verse which are sins that the Bible says leads to spiritual death.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

No.
And yes.

Does an athlete discipline themselves to be in better shape ?

However, some (maybe many) forms used, of 'affliction', are useless, harmful, and not acceptable by Yahuweh (God) nor Christ.

Resha Caner · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Not sure why that is needed.

It was a joke.

Tree of Life · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

Nope. No amount of asceticism or severity to the body is able to stop the indulgence of the flesh. It has the appearance of self-made religion, but in the end it is powerless to change the heart.

SkyWriting · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Not sure why that is needed. The fear of separation from God, His love, and punishment is more than enough of a motivator.

Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Do you actually believe you can be cleansed from at least grievous is of the flesh and spirit?

Please keep in mind that for the point of discussion (so we don’t talk about Sinless Perfection - which is not allowed in this section of the forums), I am going to refer to at least “grievous sin” in this verse which are sins that the Bible says leads to spiritual death.

I don't trust that the letters to the churches are intended at us.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

The key word here is "self". Where self is involved, the Holy Spirit is not.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

Apparently it has no value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Furthermore, Romans 13 says that any commandment is summed up by this brief saying that love does not harm their neighbour. Thus harming yourself to keep yourself from harming, is nonsensical.

The way you treat yourself, is how you will treat others.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 26, 2019

Oscarr said:
The key word here is "self". Where self is involved, the Holy Spirit is not.

I am not actually convinced entirely either way on the topic.
The idea of destroying one's flesh appears to be defiling or hurting God's temple - IMO.
So I am not in agreement exactly with the idea of the Catholic's history of men who hurt themselves physically to stop sinning. I think those who did such a thing in the past had obviously misunderstood what 1 Corinthians 9:27 said.

But on the other hand (pun intended), Jesus did say we are to cut off our hand, etc. as a part of overcoming in lusting after a woman to enter the Kingdom. Granted, I would never tell anyone to do that, but the point here is that what if the Lord was speaking literally? What if somebody actually did that and it worked for them? Would that not be worth it if such a thing saved them from doing such a sin? Again, I am not telling you or anyone to do this. It is a bit of a question mark floating above my head. Sometimes it is best to say that we don't know instead of just going off what we think. We look through a glass darkly.

As for "self" well, the Holy Spirit inspired the author of Hebrews this statement,

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).

Pepper77 · Jul 31, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Nope. No amount of asceticism or severity to the body is able to stop the indulgence of the flesh. It has the appearance of self-made religion, but in the end it is powerless to change the heart.[/QUOTE

Bible Highlighter said:

I am not actually convinced entirely either way on the topic.
The idea of destroying one's flesh appears to be defiling or hurting God's temple - IMO.
So I am not in agreement exactly with the idea of the Catholic's history of men who hurt themselves physically to stop sinning. I think those who did such a thing in the past had obviously misunderstood what 1 Corinthians 9:27 said.

But on the other hand (pun intended), Jesus did say we are to cut off our hand, etc. as a part of overcoming in lusting after a woman to enter the Kingdom. Granted, I would never tell anyone to do that, but the point here is that what if the Lord was speaking literally? What if somebody actually did that and it worked for them? Would that not be worth it if such a thing saved them from doing such a sin? Again, I am not telling you or anyone to do this. It is a bit of a question mark floating above my head. Sometimes it is best to say that we don't know instead of just going off what we think. We look through a glass darkly.

As for "self" well, the Holy Spirit inspired the author of Hebrews this statement,

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).

Click to expand...

Perhaps, Jesus in the sermon on the mount was trying to show the people how hard it was to be righteous if they were depending on themselves for it. If they were going to enter the kingdom of God on their own merits and holiness, they would have to wind up cutting off body parts to do it, because man's heart is desperately wicked, and that's what defiles him. They may be able to do the outward requirements of the law, but to have their heart changed that would require an act of God giving them a new heart. Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Because man cannot cut out his own heart and give himself a new one, where Christ dwells, God would have to do that. He circumcises our hearts, and gives us a new one. Christ was pointing them to Himself, and the new birth in Him.

Col 2:11-23 explains how God circumcises our hearts, how we die, are buried and raised to new life in Him. Paul says since you died with Christ, (the old man), why go under self imposed religious regulations to try and harness the flesh? You died, and have been raised a new man.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2019

Pepper77 said:
Perhaps, Jesus in the sermon on the mount was trying to show the people how hard it was to be righteous if they were depending on themselves for it. If they were going to enter the kingdom of God on their own merits and holiness, they would have to wind up cutting off body parts to do it, because man's heart is desperately wicked, and that's what defiles him. They may be able to do the outward requirements of the law, but to have their heart changed that would require an act of God giving them a new heart. Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Because man cannot cut out his own heart and give himself a new one, where Christ dwells, God would have to do that. He circumcises our hearts, and gives us a new one. Christ was pointing them to Himself, and the new birth in Him.

Col 2:11-23 explains how God circumcises our hearts, how we die, are buried and raised to new life in Him. Paul says since you died with Christ, (the old man), why go under self imposed religious regulations to try and harness the flesh? You died, and have been raised a new man.

I have heard this sad story too many times already. Jesus was NOT teaching that it was futile effort to be righteous on the Sermon on the Mount. First, please quote any words of Jesus in the New Testament that shows that we could not keep His righteous teachings as per the Sermon on the Mount.

Second, if Jesus did teach that it was futile to keep God's righteous ways, then all the talk about following Jesus would be bunk and or a lie. Every righteous action that Jesus taught would not be true. He would be telling us to do things that are not possible. This again, would appear that He was using deception. He would be telling us one thing, when in reality He really was showing us He meant the exact opposite in the fact that we should sin or not even try to obey Him. If that was the thinking of Jesus, then He would be an accomplice to our own sin, and that is not possible because Jesus is GOD and He is holy, and He did not sin, nor did He justify that we could continue to sin because it is futile to keep His commands. Jesus said to "sin no more" to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11). If Jesus meant the exact opposite of that, He would have been lying. Please read more of the words of Jesus and take them seriously, and stop listening to those who say that you can sin (on some level), and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You have to think, God told Abraham to take the life of His son Isaac. This was a radical command. This is the God we serve. Yes, God stopped him. But the point here is that people are not taking seriously the words of our Lord Jesus Christ today like Abraham did with the Lord. Believe Matthew 5:28-30. Read it and believe it. Do not try to re-write God's Word to your liking.

Hillsage · Jul 31, 2019

I was the leader of the deliverance ministry of our church when we had a new pastor take over. He had come from a mega church 200 miles away in Amarillo. It was the church I had modeled our ‘Freedom Ministry‘ after. He wanted me to go through Freedom Ministry at that church. During my session The two counselors asked what spiritual disciplines I had. In answering I mentioned that I fasted one day a week. To wit I was grilled as one practicing phallagism. The one telling me that (an attorney) asked if I knew the definition of that word? I nodded that I did but he proceeded to elaborate anyway describing a person walking around beating themselves with a whip. The saddest thing about this judgment to me, was the fact that he was morbidly obese. :doh:

usexpat97 · Jul 31, 2019

When I go to the gym...set some really high goal...pray to God to help me reach it...and I do, but I am out of breath, extremely thirsty, don't even want to walk for the rest of the day. Is that not self-affliction?

Pepper77 · Jul 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I have heard this sad story too many times already. Jesus was NOT teaching that it was futile effort to be righteous on the Sermon on the Mount. First, please quote any words of Jesus in the New Testament that shows that we could not keep His righteous teachings as per the Sermon on the Mount.

Second, if Jesus did teach that it was futile to keep God's righteous ways, then all the talk about following Jesus would be bunk and or a lie. Every righteous action that Jesus taught would not be true. He would be telling us to do things that are not possible. This again, would appear that He was using deception. He would be telling us one thing, when in reality He really was showing us He meant the exact opposite in the fact that we should sin or not even try to obey Him. If that was the thinking of Jesus, then He would be an accomplice to our own sin, and that is not possible because Jesus is GOD and He is holy, and He did not sin, nor did He justify that we could continue to sin because it is futile to keep His commands. Jesus said to "sin no more" to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11). If Jesus meant the exact opposite of that, He would have been lying. Please read more of the words of Jesus and take them seriously, and stop listening to those who say that you can sin (on some level), and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You have to think, God told Abraham to take the life of His son Isaac. This was a radical command. This is the God we serve. Yes, God stopped him. But the point here is that people are not taking seriously the words of our Lord Jesus Christ today like Abraham did with the Lord. Believe Matthew 5:28-30. Read it and believe it. Do not try to re-write God's Word to your liking.

Have to go to work, so will answer this later. Just one question though....Jesus said to be perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect. How can that be done unless God intervenes and gives us that perfection through His Son?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2019

Hillsage said:
I was the leader of the deliverance ministry of our church when we had a new pastor take over. He had come from a mega church 200 miles away in Amarillo. It was the church I had modeled our ‘Freedom Ministry‘ after. He wanted me to go through Freedom Ministry at that church. During my session The two counselors asked what spiritual disciplines I had. In answering I mentioned that I fasted one day a week. To wit I was grilled as one practicing phallagism. The one telling me that (an attorney) asked if I knew the definition of that word? I nodded that I did but he proceeded to elaborate anyway describing a person walking around beating themselves with a whip. The saddest thing about this judgment to me, was the fact that he was morbidly obese.

Right, I am not in agreement with whipping or hurting our own bodies as per what we see in churches because we do not see that in the Bible. I am only for what the Bible tells us clearly. The only instance I see of where the Lord teaches us to harm ourselves so as to avoid sin is in Matthew 5:28-30 with the removing of the hand, and or the eye; However, seeing God wants us to love others as we love ourselves, it bit of a question mark for me. So I would not encourage people to take action on such a thing unless I had other Scripture confirming such a truth (without a shadow of a doubt). The removing of the eye, and or the hand is tied to entering the Kingdom. It could possibly mean that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. But if it is a metaphor, then that means we are entering the Kingdom with the metaphor removed from our life. Sounds kind of inconsistent. But again, there are scores of problems attached in chopping off the hand, and the taking of one's eye, as well. So further study on what Jesus is saying here is of paramount importance here.

Hillsage · Jul 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Right, I am not in agreement with whipping or hurting our own bodies as per what we see in churches because we do not see that in the Bible.

The only instance I see of where the Lord teaches us to harm ourselves so as to avoid sin is in Matthew 5:28-30 with the removing of the hand, and or the eye; However, seeing God wants us to love others as we love ourselves, it bit of a question mark for me.

I believe that the application of scriptures can sometimes be taken 'literally, spiritually or symbolically'. And I agree with you that this scripture must be taken 'metaphorically and not 'literally'. We have spiritual eyes, ears and I believe we also have spiritual actions related to what we DO with our 'hands' as well as where we GO with our 'feet' .

The removing of the eye, and or the hand is tied to entering the Kingdom. It could possibly mean that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. But if it is a metaphor, then that means we are entering the Kingdom with the metaphor removed from our life. Sounds kind of inconsistent. But again, there are scores of problems attached in chopping off the hand, and the taking of one's eye, as well. So further study on what Jesus is saying here is of paramount importance here.

Many may just think that the "kingdom" is in the hereafter, but I don't. I believe it is here too. I made a screensaver that says "God reigns in the obedient and he rules over the disobedient." By that I mean, in the areas of my life I'm obedient, the Lord is reigning with his kingdom. In the areas of my life I'm not, He is still Lord and will rule over me with;
"For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

Pepper77 · Aug 1, 2019

Pepper77 said:
Have to go to work, so will answer this later. Just one question though....Jesus said to be perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect. How can that be done unless God intervenes and gives us that perfection through His Son?

Bible Highlighter said:
I have heard this sad story too many times already. Jesus was NOT teaching that it was futile effort to be righteous on the Sermon on the Mount. First, please quote any words of Jesus in the New Testament that shows that we could not keep His righteous teachings as per the Sermon on the Mount.

Second, if Jesus did teach that it was futile to keep God's righteous ways, then all the talk about following Jesus would be bunk and or a lie. Every righteous action that Jesus taught would not be true. He would be telling us to do things that are not possible. This again, would appear that He was using deception. He would be telling us one thing, when in reality He really was showing us He meant the exact opposite in the fact that we should sin or not even try to obey Him. If that was the thinking of Jesus, then He would be an accomplice to our own sin, and that is not possible because Jesus is GOD and He is holy, and He did not sin, nor did He justify that we could continue to sin because it is futile to keep His commands. Jesus said to "sin no more" to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11). If Jesus meant the exact opposite of that, He would have been lying. Please read more of the words of Jesus and take them seriously, and stop listening to those who say that you can sin (on some level), and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You have to think, God told Abraham to take the life of His son Isaac. This was a radical command. This is the God we serve. Yes, God stopped him. But the point here is that people are not taking seriously the words of our Lord Jesus Christ today like Abraham did with the Lord. Believe Matthew 5:28-30. Read it and believe it. Do not try to re-write God's Word to your liking.

To me this is anything but a sad story. To come to understand this explained so much to me. If you go back and read my post, nowhere did I say it was futile to keep God's righteous ways. I said it was futile if we were depending on our own efforts apart from Christ, apart from receiving as a free gift Christ's righteousness through faith in Him. Jesus said that as well many places, John 6:29 for one..."This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom he sent". The vine and the branches passage as well says the same thing, without Christ you can do nothing.

You asked me to quote any words of Jesus that says we could not keep his words in the sermon on the mount. I did....Matt 5:48...You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. We cannot be perfect in and of ourselves. Only the perfect lamb of God who died in our place and imputed and imparted His perfect righteousness to us by faith can do that. And the amazing thing is that He makes us perfect in Him, in the new creation. Is our behavior always perfect? No, its a growth process, but it is His work in us. I have been freed from sin, because I died with Christ, and have been raised in newness of life. Your theology disregards everything Christ through Paul tells us regarding who we are in Christ.

I do believe Jesus's words. Do you?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 1, 2019

Pepper77 said:
To me this is anything but a sad story.

Well, I can relate. My heart is grieved and saddened by all the worldly churches out there, and by those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

What they fail to understand is that while grace abounds (Romans 5:20), grace also reigns (rules) by righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21) (cf. 1 John 3:7).

What they fail to understand is that the reason Christ died for us was so for the purpose that He might sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture), so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

You said:
...nowhere did I say it was futile to keep God's righteous ways.

What you are proposing here is a circular contradiction.
What you imply by your above words here is: "that it is not futile to keep God's righteous ways."
However, do you really believe you can obey God's righteous ways or commands?
By your statement you made before about about how you cannot obey Jesus command in Matthew 5, it appears that you cannot keep some of His commands. If so, then it is a futile exercise to keep God's commands because you believe it is impossible to actually keep them in this instance in Matthew 5. But Jesus says with God, all things are possible.

You said:
I said it was futile if we were depending on our own efforts apart from Christ, apart from receiving as a free gift Christ's righteousness through faith in Him.

Sorry, to be skeptical, but when I hear things like this said by others, they usually are referring to how they can sin and still be saved on some level because they have a belief on Jesus (or that they have a safety net to sin on rare occasion or not worry about sin because Jesus paid for all their future sin - when the Bible does not teach future sin is forgiven them - See 1 John 1:9).

You said:
Jesus said that as well many places, John 6:29 for one..."This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom he sent".

I don't think there is a Christian who is allowed to post on this Christian section of the forums who does not believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and with them believing in His death, and resurrection. I don't think there is a Christian in this section of the forums who believes we are saved by works alone without God's grace.

You said:
The vine and the branches passage as well says the same thing, without Christ you can do nothing.

Right, and this verse (among many others) is why I don't believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe John 15:5 is teaching us that God does the good work through us after we are saved by God's grace. Being saved by God's grace through faith is Justification. All three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work within the believer after they seek forgiveness with Jesus Christ and believe the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). John 15:5 is talking about the Sanctification Process (after Justification). Sanctification (which is a work of God done through us under our cooperation) is a part of salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13). If it is not this way, then we can live like devils, and or not lift a finger for God and just trust in His grace and go back to our lives of sin. But surely that is not the way of salvation. That surely is not the narrow way.

You said:
You asked me to quote any words of Jesus that says we could not keep his words in the sermon on the mount. I did....Matt 5:48...You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. We cannot be perfect in and of ourselves.

This is called not looking at the context to justify a wrong viewpoint.

Matthew 5:48 says,
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

But the context of this phrase is tied to this:

44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:"
(Matthew 5:44-45).

This is how we may be perfect as the Father. We can become children of our Father in heaven by loving our enemies, blessing them when they curse us, and doing good unto them when they hate us, etc. Do you think that doing such things is impossible? Again, Jesus says with God, all things are possible. Ask for the Lord's help to obey Him, and He will help you. Do not doubt His Word, but only believe it.

You said:
Only the perfect lamb of God who died in our place and imputed and imparted His perfect righteousness to us by faith can do that. And the amazing thing is that He makes us perfect in Him, in the new creation. Is our behavior always perfect? No, its a growth process, but it is His work in us.

1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Jesus Christ. It says that if we WALK in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, ... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:9-11 using different words tells us that loving our brother is walking in the light.

So we have to love our brother to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us.

1 John 3:15 confirms this truth.

1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother) we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

You said:
I have been freed from sin, because I died with Christ, and have been raised in newness of life. Your theology disregards everything Christ through Paul tells us regarding who we are in Christ.

Being freed from sin and dying with Christ is being given a new nature whereby we are given a new heart with new desires, and we are no longer slaves to committing sin. It means we now have the power to overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) within our lives. Most take the idea that we are freed from sin and we died with Christ to mean that their future sin is forgiven them and that they no longer have to worry about any kind of sin destroying their soul anymore. This creates a wrong view about sin in the life of a believer. Grievous sin can still destroy believers if such sins are not confessed or forsaken (See Proverbs 28:13).

Pepper77 · Aug 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I can relate. My heart is grieved and saddened by all the worldly churches out there, and by those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

What they fail to understand is that while grace abounds (Romans 5:20), grace also reigns (rules) by righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21) (cf. 1 John 3:7).

What they fail to understand is that the reason Christ died for us was so for the purpose that He might sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture), so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

What you are proposing here is a circular contradiction.
What you imply by your above words here is: "that it is not futile to keep God's righteous ways."
However, do you really believe you can obey God's righteous ways or commands?
By your statement you made before about about how you cannot obey Jesus command in Matthew 5, it appears that you cannot keep some of His commands. If so, then it is a futile exercise to keep God's commands because you believe it is impossible to actually keep them in this instance in Matthew 5. But Jesus says with God, all things are possible.

Sorry, to be skeptical, but when I hear things like this said by others, they usually are referring to how they can sin and still be saved on some level because they have a belief on Jesus (or that they have a safety net to sin on rare occasion or not worry about sin because Jesus paid for all their future sin - when the Bible does not teach future sin is forgiven them - See 1 John 1:9).

I don't think there is a Christian who is allowed to post on this Christian section of the forums who does not believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and with them believing in His death, and resurrection. I don't think there is a Christian in this section of the forums who believes we are saved by works alone without God's grace.

Right, and this verse (among many others) is why I don't believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe John 15:5 is teaching us that God does the good work through us after we are saved by God's grace. Being saved by God's grace through faith is Justification. All three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work within the believer after they seek forgiveness with Jesus Christ and believe the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). John 15:5 is talking about the Sanctification Process (after Justification). Sanctification (which is a work of God done through us under our cooperation) is a part of salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13). If it is not this way, then we can live like devils, and or not lift a finger for God and just trust in His grace and go back to our lives of sin. But surely that is not the way of salvation. That surely is not the narrow way.

This is called not looking at the context to justify a wrong viewpoint.

Matthew 5:48 says,
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

But the context of this phrase is tied to this:

44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:"
(Matthew 5:44-45).

This is how we may be perfect as the Father. We can become children of our Father in heaven by loving our enemies, blessing them when they curse us, and doing good unto them when they hate us, etc. Do you think that doing such things is impossible? Again, Jesus says with God, all things are possible. Ask for the Lord's help to obey Him, and He will help you. Do not doubt His Word, but only believe it.

1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Jesus Christ. It says that if we WALK in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, ... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:9-11 using different words tells us that loving our brother is walking in the light.

So we have to love our brother to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us.

1 John 3:15 confirms this truth.

1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother) we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Being freed from sin and dying with Christ is being given a new nature whereby we are given a new heart with new desires, and we are no longer slaves to committing sin. It means we now have the power to overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) within our lives. Most take the idea that we are freed from sin and we died with Christ to mean that their future sin is forgiven them and that they no longer have to worry about any kind of sin destroying their soul anymore. This creates a wrong view about sin in the life of a believer. Grievous sin can still destroy believers if such sins are not confessed or forsaken (See Proverbs 28:13).

Nowhere did I say grace is a license to sin. It's grace that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness.

Jesus was speaking to people before the cross. He was teaching Jews who were living under the law, believing they could stop sinning by the law and live righteously. But its the law that brings about the knowledge of sin, and actually causes sin to abound. Paul explains this in Romans. Jesus was showing them the same thing. He was pointing them to Himself, to the life that He was going to offer them through His death. That they would need to die to their own self-righteousness so they could trust in Him as their life.

I can and do live righteously through Him. And yes, He does forgive all our sins and we are secure in Him, never to be lost because He keeps us saved. I know you don't believe this, but I do and have explained to you in another thread over and over why I believe this is what scripture teaches He has accomplished for us and in us. So I won't go back over that because you don't believe that. I trust what He says He has made me. And He does change us and changes our desires to walk worthy of what He has actually made us.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 2, 2019

Pepper77 said:
Nowhere did I say grace is a license to sin. It's grace that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness.

But what if telling others that their future sin is forgiven them can make them to think God's grace is a license to sin? It is very easy to to mislead a person by saying this and then saying nothing more. Take for example George Sodini. He was a man who believed that we are saved by God's grace and not of works and that future sin was forgiven him. Unfortunately he murdered a bunch of people, and he took his own life and he wrote in his suicide letter that he was saved by Jesus by having a belief alone in him. Even his deacon friend at his church said he was saved in a newspaper article. What if you told George Sodini that his future sin is forgiven him and that your saying that him really convinced him of what he was about to do? Would you not want to change your belief after hearing that? See, God's truth should never lead us down the wrong path.

You said:
Jesus was speaking to people before the cross. He was teaching Jews who were living under the law, believing they could stop sinning by the law and live righteously. But its the law that brings about the knowledge of sin,

I disagree. Jesus also taught grace in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, and the Parable of the Prodigal Son, etc. There was never a time that it was okay to be under the Law. Salvation has always been by God's grace through faith in the Messiah, and works of faith that follow. Jesus was not indulging the Pharisees. Jesus was actually teaching New Covenant by giving us new teachings (that in some places conflicted with Old Covenant teachings). For example: OT said an eye for an eye, but Jesus said that we are to now turn the other cheek. Jesus was not giving us a false scare tactic in Matthew 5:28-30. He really meant that if a person looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense for Jesus to give us these new teachings just so that they can be undone so quickly at Christ’s death (When the New Covenant officially began).

Anyways, if you believe Jesus was trying to show how they could not keep God’s laws by his righteous teachings, then what chapter and verse does Jesus explain this?

You said:
and actually causes sin to abound. Paul explains this in Romans. Jesus was showing them the same thing. He was pointing them to Himself, to the life that He was going to offer them through His death.

No. Jesus said, "sin no more" to two people. (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Why would Jesus tell them to do something that was impossible? It would make his instruction out to be like a deception. Jesus told the one guy, "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." So Jesus really meant business here. He was not kidding around.

Then how does grace abound more than sin? Because sin leads to death or destruction or annihilation in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). Grace through a true faith leads to eternal life. Grace abounds for all eternity. That is why grace abounds so much more. God’s grace enables men to live forever and that grace made eternal life to flourish for all time.

“That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:21).

Grace does not abound in the sense that a believer does not need to worry about sin because their future sin is forgiven them. That is not what it is saying.

You said:
That they would need to die to their own self-righteousness so they could trust in Him as their life.

Believing in Christ's death and resurrection and seeking forgiveness with Jesus is where salvation starts. But working out salvation with fear and trembling is also biblical. This is not a trusting in one's own works, but a trusting in God to do the good work through them. All glory goes to the Lord for any good work the Lord does through a believer's life. There is no boasting in one's own works like in Ephesians 2:9.

You said:
I can and do live righteously through Him. And yes, He does forgive all our sins and we are secure in Him, never to be lost because He keeps us saved.

Again, that is not how Christ's sacrifice is applied to a believer's life. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 says Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

You said:
I know you don't believe this,

Right, because it goes against the plain words of the Bible.

You said:
And He does change us and changes our desires to walk worthy of what He has actually made us.

Then why are we told to continue in the faith?
Why are we told to continue in God's grace?
Why are we told to continue in His goodness (otherwise will be cut off - just like the Jews)?

Is the idea of self affliction of our bodies to keep from sinning biblical?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

By grace through faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

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By grace through faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

By grace through faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

By grace through faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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