Are you saved or delusional?

redleghunter said:

First, I know of no scripture where it states to sealed in the Spirit believers "fear God because He just might take all those promises away."

What you present is a self-made sadistic fear.

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That is what he has to come to grips with.

It is sadistic, designed to instill fear in neurotic and insecure believers who lack sound teaching to counter with. Its a sheep tormentor modus operandi.



"Never"' means? Maybe? Sometimes?

Taking God on His Word is what pleases God. Its called "faith."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Is there ANY Scripture that says anyone can "obtain love" ?

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Yes!



We need sound doctrine to be taken on a regular basis into our human spirit, so the Holy Spirit can teach our spirit and empower (grace) our soul to be strong in love that grows in truth and His granted insight - Understanding with depth! Its the love of the Holy Spirit that gains access into our emotions and thinking via accepting sound doctrine that makes us one in One mind!

Those with false doctrinal yearnings have no clue as to what that speaks. They only know 'self love' in pride of achieving something designed to frustrate others. The better they frustrate the better a job they think they are doing. For, it proves to them how much smarter they are than those they look down upon.

genez said:

Yes!


9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Pilipns 1:9

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sorry, no.
It (what you just now quoted), does not say what I asked.
Try again. (maybe another translation says what I asked? < shrugs > so far have not found one)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

sorry, no.
It (what you just now quoted), does not say what I asked.
Try again. (maybe another translation says what I asked? < shrugs > so far have not found one)

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How can one dialogue with someone who can not even admit what they say?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Is there ANY Scripture that says anyone can "obtain love" ?

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What I said reveals how one who is a believer obtains and gains love "more and more."

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Pilipns 1:9

You may not like my answer. I have a feeling it was because it does address your question, that (apparently) you were sure there was no answer for? Is that the case?

And... Sorry for answering your question 'Biblically.' Hello?

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay, let's consider the possibility that Jesus is referring to those who justified sin in Matthew 7:23.

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Hello again Bible Highlighter, I'm not sure I understand, why would we want to do that? We've been given limited information about who these people are, beyond which we are left with nothing but pure conjecture.

Bible Highlighter said:

What if Jesus is not talking about those who have fallen away, but to those who had a wrong view of salvation to begin with (like with George Sodini and or others who justify grievous sins)?

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Matthew 7:23's, "I ~NEVER~ knew you", tells us all that we need to know.

The people the Lord is addressing (at the Judgment .. Matthew 7:22) were -never- believers, never, "born again" (no matter what they "claimed" they did in this life, and no matter how many times they uttered the words, "Lord, Lord"). Also, these people were not "fallen away", they couldn't have been, because 1. they never knew God and 2. they were never saved.

They had no saving faith to "fall away" from!

So again, this short passage has nothing at all to do with OSAS, because OSAS is only concerned with people who are already ~saved~, and these folks never were.

--David
p.s. - BTW, "I ~never~ knew you" also tells us why they were incapable of obeying the Father's will .. cf John 3:3;1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14.
.

genez said:

That is what he has to come to grips with.

It is sadistic, designed to instill fear in neurotic and insecure believers who lack sound teaching to counter with. Its a sheep tormentor modus operandi.

"Keep your lives free from the love of money
and be content with what you have,
because God has said,

“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.” Heb 13:5​

"Never"' means? Maybe? Sometimes?

Taking God on His Word is what pleases God. Its called "faith."

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Right, well in Deuteronomy, we read God saying,

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).

Yet, in the same chapter, God also says,

16 "...Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).

Meaning, if one does evil, they are not exempt from the judgment of God.

Even in the New Testament, things have not changed.

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
28 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? " (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Bible Highlighter said:

But see, if he was able to shipwreck his faith, then Calvinism is not biblical because Calvinism teaches POTS (Perseverance of the Saints).

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Hi Bible Highlighter, I'm not certain that you understand what the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine actually teaches. Perhaps you do, but I'll include a short summation for you below, just in case.

Also, making "shipwreck" of one's faith is extremely serious, but it does not mean a loss of salvation, at least it didn't in the only example of it that we have in the Bible. Read 1 Timothy 1:18-20 and take note of what St. Paul did (with Hymenaeus and Alexander), and why he did so.

--David
p.s. - the Perseverance of the Saints teaches us that God has promised to preserve His own in the faith and see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, even if the road we end up traveling on is a little bumpy (or a lot ) along the the way.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again Bible Highlighter, I'm not sure I understand, why would we want to do that? We've been given limited information about who these people are, beyond which we are left with nothing but pure conjecture.

Matthew 7:23's, "I ~NEVER~ knew you", tells us all that we need to know.

The people the Lord is addressing (at the Judgment .. Matthew 7:22) were -never- believers, never, "born again" (no matter what they "claimed" they did in this life, and no matter how many times they uttered the words, "Lord, Lord"). Also, these people were not "fallen away", they couldn't have been, because 1. they never knew God and 2. they were never saved.

They had no saving faith to "fall away" from!

So again, this short passage has nothing at all to do with OSAS, because OSAS is only concerned with people who are already ~saved~, and these folks never were.

--David
p.s. - BTW, "I ~never~ knew you" also tells us why they were incapable of obeying the Father's will .. cf John 3:3;1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14.
.

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Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 that they did good works in Christ's name, and they also worked iniquity or sin. Jesus does not know these kinds of believers even though they did good works in his name (signifying they are believers in Jesus). Those are the facts of Matthew 7:23.

In the same chapter we learn:

Jesus says,

1. A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (bad deeds) (vs. 18).
2. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit (good deeds) (vs. 18).
3. A tree with no good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire (vs. 19).
4. We shall know false prophets by their fruits (deeds) (vs. 20).
5. Not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (vs. 21) (Note: See John 4:34, and 1 Thessalonians 4:3).
6. The person who does the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom (vs. 21).
7. The person who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (vs. 26-27).

As you can see, the theme of this chapter is doing good deeds, and not bad deeds as a part of being in God's kingdom. Some think they can do both good deeds, and bad deeds, but this kind of belief is rejected by Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:22-23. You can surmise that these were not believers, but they did works in His name (Thereby making them believers). Yes, a person can be a believer in Jesus, but that does not mean they actually know Him. They can say the believe in Him, but if they are not truly obeying His commands, they do not know Him (See 1 John 2:3-4).

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 that they did good works in Christ's name, and they also worked iniquity or sin. Jesus does not know these kinds of believers even though they did good works in his name (signifying they are believers in Jesus). Those are the facts of Matthew 7:23.

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Hi Bible Highlighter, I'm afraid that I'm confused, where (in v23) does Jesus say that someone did "good works" in His Name? Here is v23:


Thanks!

--David
p.s. - I'll drop the entire passage in here again in case it's needed for reference sake.

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Bible Highlighter, I'm not certain that you understand what the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine actually teaches. Perhaps you do, but I'll include a short summation for you below, just in case.

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This is not my first rodeo when it comes to discussing Calvinism. POTS essentially is saying the same thing as Once Saved Always Saved. If a believer is truly converted, there is nothing they can do to become unsaved. Believers cannot fall away and they are forced to endure by God. That is Perseverance of the Saints. Unfortunately it is not remotely biblical. We are not robots and nor are we forced against our will to serve God and or neither are we forced saved into His Kingdom by a one time decision to believe in Jesus Christ (after being converted by some kind of Calvinistic means).

You said:

Also, making "shipwreck" of one's faith is extremely serious, but it does not mean a loss of salvation, at least it didn't in the only example of it that we have in the Bible. Read 1 Timothy 1:18-20 and take note of what St. Paul did (with Hymenaeus and Alexander), and why he did so.

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Let's read it.


Okay.

In Verse 18, Paul addresses Timothy about an upcoming instruction that will help him to fight for the Lord.

Verse 19 says some people's faith had been shipwrecked. Shipwrecked means that the ship is destroyed. Picture a ship being destroyed. Now, picture that with faith. The faith is destroyed or shipwrecked.

Verse 20 says that Hymenaeus and Alexander are examples of this kind of shipwrecked faith. They were handed over to Satan so as not to learn not to blaspheme. They are delivered to the enemy and his kingdom and not God's kingdom. A person cannot be a part of God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom. It is an oxymoron. So what is happening here is that they shipwrecked their faith and they died spiritually by blaspheming. They were handed over to the devil to correct them so that they might repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) so as to be restored back to the Lord and His salvation again.

You said:

John 6:37-40,

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Verse 39 uses the word "should" in relation to losing nothing.
Should is not a guarantee.
I can say that I should be asleep by this evening by such and such time, but there is no guarantee of that.

You said:

10:27-28;

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In John 10:27-28, you need to read verse 27. For the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand are the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. Verse 27 says these are sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. These are not lazy sheep that are rebellious and or sinful. This means that if the sheep stop following Jesus, they can be snatched out of his hand because they are not longer following Jesus (Thereby meeting the conditions of verse 27).

You said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24,

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2 Corinthians 7:1 says sort of a similar thing.
"...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Do you believe that a believer can cleanse themselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfect holiness in the fear of God?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Is there ANY Scripture that says anyone can "obtain love" ?

Click to expand...

That’s why I asked the question. It seems from some posts we can earn love by fearing God.

genez said:

Yes!

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Pilipns 1:9

​

We need sound doctrine to be taken on a regular basis into our human spirit, so the Holy Spirit can teach our spirit and empower (grace) our soul to be strong in love that grows in truth and His granted insight - Understanding with depth! Its the love of the Holy Spirit that gains access into our emotions and thinking via accepting sound doctrine that makes us one in One mind!

Those with false doctrinal yearnings have no clue as to what that speaks. They only know 'self love' in pride of achieving something designed to frustrate others. The better they frustrate the better a job they think they are doing. For, it proves to them how much smarter they are than those they look down upon.

Click to expand...

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Bible Highlighter said:

There is no fear if your salvation is not on the line.

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That may have been the fear experienced in the old covenant.

Hebrews 12: NASB

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of therighteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

redleghunter said:

That’s why I asked the question. It seems from some posts we can earn love by fearing God.

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Perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18).
We can perfect love by keeping His Word (1 John 2:5).
1 John 2:5 is in context to keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3-4).
Ecclesiastes 12:13 is in your Bible for a reason, and it should apply to your life in some way today and it should not be ignored or thrown out.

redleghunter said:

That may have been the fear experienced in the old covenant.

Hebrews 12: NASB

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of therighteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

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God does not change. He is still to be feared. Just try doing a search on the word "fear" in the New Testament. Also, Jesus says,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire]." (Matthew 10:28).

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Bible Highlighter, I'm afraid that I'm confused, where (in v23) does Jesus say that someone did "good works" in His Name? Here is v23:

Matthew 7
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’’’​

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - I'll drop the entire passage in here again in case it's needed for reference sake.

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
.​

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Right, verse 22 (Note: I edited my post to now say Matthew 7:22-23). It's late.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matthew 7:22).

Also, if you were to turn to Matthew 13, you will see that Jesus send forth his angels and gather out of his kingdom all who offend (sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).


Imagine that. Jesus is going to send His angels to gather OUT of His kingdom (anyone who declares to be a part of his kingdom) if they offend (sin) or work iniquity (intense sin) and they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (the furnace of fire).

Bible Highlighter said:

God does not change. He is still to be feared. Just try doing a search on the word "fear" in the New Testament. Also, Jesus says,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire]." (Matthew 10:28).

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What did change from the old covenant to the new covenant?

Bible Highlighter said:

Right, verse 22. It's late. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matthew 7:22).

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No worries, I do stuff like that all the time around here, even at times when I'm trying to be careful not to do so

That said, I'm still confused, where did Jesus tell us that the folks in v22 did the "good/amazing works" that they were claiming to have done He told us what they told Him, but He never confirmed that what they said was true, did He, only that they had ~claimed~ to have done them, yes?

Thanks again!

--David

redleghunter said:

What did change from the old covenant to the new covenant?

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Don't you get it? He has many instant contradictions at the tip of his fingers. Too many to not be dedicated at what he does..

That means? He is inspired by a spirit.

I met a guy like that once who claimed to be a believer. Show him any passage? And, with in a few seconds he would find a way to obfuscate and contradict its real meaning. It took him only a second. No study needed. I was taken to see a psychic for a birthday gift when I was younger. She had instant recognition of things that she should not know.

Test the spirits.

That should suffice.

redleghunter said:

First, I know of no scripture where it states to sealed in the Spirit believers "fear God because He just might take all those promises away."

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Scripture has to be read in balance with other verses.
The promises are true if we meet the conditions of those promises.

You said:

What you present is a self-made sadistic fear.

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Well, I did not write Matthew 10:28. What do you make of it?

You said:

Second, you never answered my question...Where does Godly fear come from?

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We are told to do this: "Let us have gratitude, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Hebrews 12:28).

If we are told to have godly fear, this means that godly fear is something that we must partake in. Abraham obeyed God in offering up his son Isaac, and God said, "now I know that thou fearest God," (Genesis 22:12), and God rewarded Abraham for his obedience.

If God forced Abraham to have godly fear, it really would not make any sense.

Jason0047 said:

Job lost his sons, his wealth, health, and he did not say that this is what he feared GOD for. Christians can suffer hardships whether they obey God or not. So fear in this context does not make any sense.

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You said:

I don't know why you brought this up. Job obviously trusted God.
I don't know where this is coming from. You are not making sense here.

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You said before that fear can be something that is other than a loss of salvation. Jesus did not seem to express this kind of thinking. Jesus said fear not those who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). The point here is that we are to fear the Lord Jesus because He has the power to destroy our souls in the Lake of Fire. The Eternal Security Proponent will thrown down the Chastisement card in their saying that God will correct them. They think this is fear. But what kind of chastisement is truly scary? Loss of things, or people they love, or their own health. These things can happen even if we obey God. Fearing persecution, or hardships can happen to the Christian life. If we are chastised by God to live holy by some kind of fear of temporary affliction here in this life, it is small potatoes by comparison to the fear of the Lord in how He can destroy us in the Lake of Fire.

You said:

So a Christian can only obtain love by fearing?

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It starts off as fear, but then perfect love (obedience to His Word) casts out fear.