Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

eleos1954

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Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Whom the Apostles taught. Yes, this is a challenge!!!

Please provide your complete list of all Early Church Fathers.
 
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D.A. Wright

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Challenge accepted! Got extensive lists coming out of my ears (I'm a Seventh-day Adventist), so that part won't be necessary.

Ready?

Guess Who taught the apostles? His Name starts with a "C". Guess what they used for scriptures when they taught the almighty "Early Church Fathers?" The Law and the Prophets. You know, that volume Jesus was so crazy about and quoted all the time? Guess where the concept of investigative judgment is first taught? Do you think God really didn't know where Adam was hiding after he ate the fruit? Do you think He really needed to go down to find out what the builders of the tower in Shinar were up to? Or that He couldn't see how bad things were in Sodom and Gomorrah from His Throne?

The investigative judgment is simply about God voluntarily placing Himself under the scrutiny of His creatures throughout the universe who do not have the powers of omniscience or omnipresence upon which to assure their safety and security. Try to remain calm, and take off that tin-foil miter! Adventism isn't contagious. Oh, and we don't eat babies, either.

Next!
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There is no reference to the "investigative judgment"in the fathers. NEW ADVENT: Search"

It was a late invention of Adventists, which read their opinion into the Bible. It did not exist before the cornfield.

"Hiram Edson (1806–1882) was a pioneer of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, known for introducing the sanctuary doctrine (investigative judgment) to the church." htt sanctuary doctrine (investigative judgment) ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Edson

So, since you accepted the challenge search the Church Fathers for your interpretations. I do not think they are there.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Hebrews 8:1-2
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an High Priest; who is set down on the right hand of the throne of the majesty in the heavens: a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord pitched, and not man.

1. Paul mixes the lowly things with the lofty, ever imitating his Master, so that the lowly become the path to the lofty, and through the former we are led to the latter, and when we are amid the great things we learn that these [lowly ones] were a condescension. This accordingly he does here also. After declaring that He offered up Himself, and showing Him to be a High Priest, what does he say? Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: we have such an High Priest who is set down on the right hand of the throne of the majesty. And yet this is not [the office] of a Priest, but of Him whom the Priest should serve.

A minister of the sanctuary, not simply a minister, but a minister of the sanctuary. And of the true Tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man. You see the condescension. Did he not a little before make a separation, saying: Are they not all ministering spirits? Hebrews 1:14 and therefore (he says) it is not said to them, Sit on my right hand, Hebrews 1:13 for He that sits is not a minister. How is it then that it is here said, a minister, and a minister of the Sanctuary? For he means here the Tabernacle. CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 14 on Hebrews (Chrysostom)

this is the search for above NEW ADVENT: Search

Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

There is no reference to Jesus entering the Temple 1844 years later.
In all the Fathers, Jesus entered the Temple in Heaven around 33 AD.
There is no record neither of Him writing down our sins.

Why Would God who knows all things have to keep track in a book?

Do I misunderstand that point of Jesus writing down sins in a book?
This would only make sense if some who formed this doctrine did not believe that Jesus is God aka Arianism.

The Investigative Judgment in the Writings of Ellen G. White

"As was mentioned earlier, Arian views were quite pervasive in the writings of early Seventh-day Adventism." Arianism, Adventism and Methodism: The Healing of Trinitarian Teaching and Soteriology</b></font></b></font>
 
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Daniel Marsh

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here is what Jesus is doing today,

Romans 8:34 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us.

"
Hebrews 7:25
6. Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost, that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them. You see that he says this in respect of that which is according to the flesh. For when He [appears] as Priest, then He also intercedes. Wherefore also when Paul says, who also makes intercession for us Romans 8:34, he hints the same thing; the High Priest makes intercession. For He that raises the dead as He will, and quickens them, John 5:21, and that even as the Father [does], how [is it that] when there is need to save, He makes intercession? John 5:22 He that has all judgment, how [is it that] He makes intercession? He that sends His angels Matthew 13:41-42, that they may cast some into the furnace, and save others, how [is it that] He makes intercession? Wherefore (he says) He is able also to save. For this cause then He saves, because He dies not. Inasmuch as He ever lives, He has (he means) no successor: And if He have no successor, He is able to aid all men. For there [under the Law] indeed, the High Priest although he were worthy of admiration during the time in which he was [High Priest] (as Samuel for instance, and any other such), but, after this, no longer; for they were dead. But here it is not so, but Hesaves to the uttermost.

What is to the uttermost? He hints at some mystery. Not here only (he says) but there also He saves them that come unto God by Him. How does He save? In that He ever lives (he says) to make intercession for them. You see the humiliation? You see the manhood? For he says not, that He obtained this, by making intercession once for all, but continually, and whenever it may be needful to intercede for them.

To the uttermost. What is it? Not for a time only, but there also in the future life. 'Does He then always need to pray? Yet how can [this] be reasonable? Even righteous men have oftentimes accomplished all by one entreaty, and is He always praying? Why then is He throned with [the Father]?' You see that it is a condescension. The meaning is: Be not afraid, nor say, Yea, He loves us indeed, and He has confidence towards the Father, but He cannot live always. For He does live always."
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 13 on Hebrews (Chrysostom)

Clearly his ministry in heaven is praying for us.
 
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So, what Christ is doing now is exactly what He was divinely reported to have been doing 1900+ years ago. And He could not possibly have been bothered to take upon Himself any additional duties. Interesting. It appears to me that the church fathers themselves do not even make that claim, at least not from what you have shared.
 
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Hebrews 8:1-2
Why Would God who knows all things have to keep track in a book?

Do I misunderstand that point of Jesus writing down sins in a book?
This would only make sense if some who formed this doctrine did not believe that Jesus is God aka Arianism.

Again:
The investigative judgment is simply about God voluntarily placing Himself under the scrutiny of His creatures throughout the universe who do not have the powers of omniscience or omnipresence upon which to assure their safety and security.

Try to keep up.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Again:
The investigative judgment is simply about God voluntarily placing Himself under the scrutiny of His creatures throughout the universe who do not have the powers of omniscience or omnipresence upon which to assure their safety and security.

Try to keep up.

I linked to a site that shows SDA view is writing down sin in books.

Since, Jesus is God there is no reason for him to write anything down.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So, what Christ is doing now is exactly what He was divinely reported to have been doing 1900+ years ago. And He could not possibly have been bothered to take upon Himself any additional duties. Interesting. It appears to me that the church fathers themselves do not even make that claim, at least not from what you have shared.

The burden of proof is on you to quote the Church Fathers to show that your doctrines were taught by the early church. You have failed the Challenge.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I read your responses and they do not prove the early church taught your doctrines.

The burden of proof is on you to quote the Church Fathers to show that your doctrines were taught by the early church. You have failed the Challenge.

It is clear your teachings are not taught by the early church.

History is not on your side.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The burden of proof is on you to quote the Church Fathers to show that your doctrines were taught by the early church.
oops, grand and fatal mistake. (in the argument)..... quoting the ecf does not help in any way to show what doctrines were taught by the believers in the first century.
They, the ecf, often made mistakes.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Please provide your complete list of all Early Church Fathers.
More than that would be required - many messages from the ecf, often quoted on forums, are contrary to Scripture,
so every message must be individually tested and proven BEFORE believing it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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oops, grand and fatal mistake. (in the argument)..... quoting the ecf does not help in any way to show what doctrines were taught by the believers in the first century.
They, the ecf, often made mistakes.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Fact is, The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles themselves. Thus they show us exactly what the Early Church taught.
No human is perfect. so what????

"
Two of the earliest Church Fathers, Polycarp and Ignatius taught the deity of Christ. The early Church father, Irenaeus (circa A. D. 120-190) wrote that Polycarp was “instructed” and “appointed” by the apostles, “conversed with many who had seen Christ,” “having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles,”(2) “the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning his miracles and his teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the ‘Word of life,'”(3) So his view of Jesus is very important. In The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, he mentions “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our Lord and God Jesus Christ.”(4)

...

1. Justin: “[He] who is called God,” “God the Son of God,” “is even God.”
2. Irenaeus: “the Spirit designates both [Father and Son] by the name, of God,” “His essence, that He is God.”
3. Clement of Alexandria: “truly most manifest Deity,” “made equal to the Lord of the universe.”
4. Tertullian: “never separate from the Father, or other than the Father,” of the same “substance” as the Father, “Trinity.”
5. Hippolytus: “is God, being the substance of God,” “God the Word,” “in essential being with His Father.”
6. Origen: not beyond the “substance” of the Father, “the great God,” “we regard the Savior as God,” “without any beginning,” “fullness of His deity.”
...
Therefore, there is a continuity of belief in the deity of Christ which began with the New Testament writers and extended to the Apostolic Fathers who knew and succeeded the Apostles, as well as their subsequent successors who became the early Church Fathers.

Footnotes…

1. Should You Believe in the Trinity? New York: Watchtower Bible And Tract Society of New York, Inc., 1989.
2. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:4. In this passage, Irenaeus also claims to have spoken with Polycarp when he (i.e., Irenaeus) was young. The first Church historian, Eusebius, quotes Irenaeus on Polycarp as someone he believed was a reliable source (Eccesiastical History, 4:14).
3. This latter citation is from Irenaeus in a work no longer extant called The Letter to Florinus, cited by the first Church historian, Eusebius, who regarded Irenaeus as a reliable source (Eccesiastical History, 4:14).
4. Polycarp. Philippians 12:2.

https://www.risenjesus.com/the-early-church-fathers-on-jesus
 
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Daniel Marsh

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More than that would be required - many messages from the ecf, often quoted on forums, are contrary to Scripture,
so every message must be individually tested and proven BEFORE believing it.

Make a list of all your Anabaptist's doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fat

You are aware that anabaptists quote the church fathers?

Often when church fathers are quoted online, they are quoted out of context from secondary or later levels. Often, those doing the quotes do not use primary sources with links to the quotes like I do. I have often challenge those making such quotes to give a quote from the primary source with links to the source so I can check the context. Last ones I remember were from those who teach Sabellianism aka United Pentecostal aka Jesus Only aka Oneness which deny the Trinity.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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More than .

I have checked those quotes and know they are correctly quoted.

Polycarp (AD 69–155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[1]

Ignatius (AD 50–117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.[2]

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.[3]

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.[4]

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.[5]

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.[6]

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.[7]

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.[8]

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.[9]

Justin Martyr (AD 100–165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.[10]

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.[11]

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.[12]

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....[13]

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.[14]

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.[15]

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130–202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.[16]

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.[17]

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.[18]

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.[19]

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.[20]

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150–215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.[21]

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....[22]

Tertullian (AD 150–225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.[23]

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.[24]

...

[1] Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2.

[2] Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 0.0. (This is the Greeting.)

[3] Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 1.1.

[4] Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 7.2.

[5] Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2.

[6] Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 19.3.

[7] Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229.

[8] Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249.

[9] Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.

[10] Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264.

[11] Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 36. ANF, I:212.

[12] Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 63. ANF, I:229.

[13] Justin Martyr, First Apology, 63. ANF, I:184.

[14] Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 126. ANF, I:263.

[15] Melito, 5.

[16] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.19.2.

[17] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.6.7.

[18] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1.10.1.

[19] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.5.2.

[20] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.21.4.

[21] Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 1.

[22] Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 10.

[23] Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, 41.

[24] Tertullian, Apology, 21.

[25] Tertullian, Against Praxeas, chapter 9.

[26] Tertullian, Against Praxeas, chapter 2.

[27] Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies, 10.29.

[28] Hippolytus, Exegetical Fragments from Commentaries, On Luke, Chapter 23.

[29] Hippolytus, Against Plato, Section 3.

[30] Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of one Noetus, Section 17.

[31] Origen, De Principiis, Preface, 4.

[32] Origen. Contra Celsus, Book 5, Chapter 11.

[33] Origen, Contra Celsus Book 8, Chapter 15.

[34] Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 2.

[35] Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 4.

[36] Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 10.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God | Stand to Reason
 
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