The rise of Islam in its spiritual context

mindlight

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You really think you're more qualified to decide than the professional researchers?

Asma Hilali is the lone voice agreeing with you. Sadeghi and Goudarzi seem more plausible.

No, they don't.
False. The hadith is not authentic. Its contents make no sense and it doesn't have a proper narrator chain.

A link to bible.ca - how credible.

Sorry but the Quran was changed before Uthmann finalised it and after. Hadiths refer to lost suras and the Qurans incompleteness. There are different Arabic versions today and the Shia have a different version.

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Tisdall/shiah_additions/shiah_additions_koran.pdf

Textual Variants of the Qur'an
 
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Godistruth1

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As a Christian I have often wondered why Islam has grown so much and at the reasons for its initial success. The contention of this thread is that God allowed Mohammed (whom most Christians consider to be a false prophet) because more good came out of his rising than bad. Basically by raising up an enemy of Christianity God has encouraged Christians to trust Him more , destroyed some insidious and deeply rooted heresies and got people talking about the Trinitarian and incarnational nature of God more than they would have done otherwise. Also he challenged the ways in which the state had encroached on personal freedom by raising up an oppressive opponent that would make people realise where a theocracy without free choice would ultimately lead. Also he destroyed a bunch of pagan idolatries in favour of worship of the One God.

1) FAT, complacent Christians needed the challenge of the desert warriors to wake them up

In context much of the Byzantine empire(Or Roman empire as it knew itself) still prospered within boundaries that had remained broadly secure for many of its inhabitants since before the days of Jesus. The Muslim invasions made many who were rich poor and removed many who were influential from power. They learnt once more what it meant to trust God and not in their own resources. For many that feeling of security and experience of prosperity and status that they had attached to Rome rather than God was gone forever.

2) Doctrines were settled and formalised in a way that people were no longer challenged by the mystery and questions they posed. Or in a way that many people in the areas that were later conquered disagreed with but for false reasons.

Some people were blindly repeating the creeds without wrestling with the mysteries and challenging questions they posed for our view of God. Some people like the Monophysites in the areas Islam conquered in the Byzantine world or the Nestorians of the Sassinid empire needed a wake up call.

Interestingly the empires and nations that survived Islams golden age of expansion or ultimately triumphed over Islam and took back its conquered Christian territories were Trinitarian and incarnational in outlook. The nations or areas that fell entertained more heretical Christian positions by contrast. God spared the faithful and allowed the heretics to be subjugated being the basic lesson here.

3) The Christian empire of Byzantium had encroached on the private realm of faith to a considerable extent in order to mobilise forces and motivation for its war against the Sassinid empire.

In the name of God it fought its wars and encroached increasingly on individual freedoms on order to win a desperate struggle for survival. n doing so it forgot or neglected the freewill at the heart of the Christians walk with God. The Christian state had become itself quite Islamic in its approach and needed the wake up call of an oppressive theocracy to bring it back to its early years.

4) Islam was the force that ultimately destroyed the Nestorian heretics of Persia and much of central Asia.

The areas of the Byzantine empire that fell had strong monophysistic tendencies. The Sassanid empire had a more Nestorian outlook

5) The pagan idolaters of Mecca and the wider area were utterly wiped out by Islam in favour of worship of the One God

One could argue that no Christian would seriously miss the idolatry that Islam exposed and destroyed.

So my question to Muslims is:

Given the real reasons for your rise and the real fruit of that rise why would you think of your faith as anything more than a challenge for Christians , who should know better, to think a little harder about their faith and to trust God a lot more?
I'm a Muslim but I am not sure what you are asking! Care to elaborate a bit
 
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mindlight

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I'm a Muslim but I am not sure what you are asking! Care to elaborate a bit

One of the key differences between Christianity and Islam is how the different theocratic models work with the state. For a Muslim today , in a Muslim state, it is obvious that the state can be used to enforce Islam and this is the history of most Muslim states following the first 4 Caliphs who were not so insistent. It was a shock to the Christian world to have Christian majority provinces overwhelmed by Islam in the sense that their previous dominance of the state was lost with the Muslim conquest. Since Islam is regarded as false on issues like the incarnation and trinity various theories have been offered as to why God allowed this rise. These include the heretical tendencies of various provinces taken over and the oppressive nature of the Christian theocracy that was replaced.

Salafists who insist on a return to the early days of Islam may be surprised that many Christians welcomed the Arab Muslims cause they brought de facto freedom of religion and Christians and Jews were utilised by the Islamic state rather than marginalised and oppressed as they are in all Muslim countries today.

So why is Islam today an oppressive rather than liberating force?

Why did God allow Christians to be conquered when he knew ultimately that Islamic rule would turn ugly and oppressive?
 
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Godistruth1

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So why is Islam today an oppressive rather than liberating force?
I agree earlier Christians did have freedom to practice their religion without discrimination but now we don't see it in Muslim countries. One of the reason is hatred towards Christians in general because of how west is bombing Muslims countries and civilians being killed. They fail to understand even if America or Britain bomb Muslims they still can't do any harm to any other Christian.
Why did God allow Christians to be conquered when he knew ultimately that Islamic rule would turn ugly and oppressive?
In Islam we believe God punishes his people for the crimes they commit. Can't say more than that
 
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I agree earlier Christians did have freedom to practice their religion without discrimination but now we don't see it in Muslim countries. One of the reason is hatred towards Christians in general because of how west is bombing Muslims countries and civilians being killed. They fail to understand even if America or Britain bomb Muslims they still can't do any harm to any other Christian.

This hatred is of a power that is greater than that in the Muslim world. It just so happens that America and its allies are the leading powers of the age, in the future it might be the Chinese or Indians who are so hated. In the past it was the Mongols or the Byzantines for example. It seems to me this hatred is a kind of resentment that a non Muslim power may be the greater power.

But Muslims often miss how their own governments or factions within the Muslim world call on American or British airpower to win their own battles inside the Muslim world. Muslim governments also have a habit of taking the easy path and blaming the external power for things they themselves condoned and authorized.

But you are right Muhammad left judgment to God with people of the book, suggesting there was no compulsion in religion and this was the practice of the early Caliphs. This makes a mockery of so called Salafists who also call themselves Wahabbis for instance in Saudi Arabia.

In Islam we believe God punishes his people for the crimes they commit. Can't say more than that

Think you got that from the Christians and the Jews and of course God does do that. The dilemma in the Muslim world today is the extent to which people in authority and power consider themselves able to carry out Gods judgments in their own strength rather than leaving those judgments to a God whose knowledge is complete, whose wisdom is perfect and who is just and true in a way that people are not.
 
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Yytz6

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Asma Hilali is the lone voice agreeing with you. Sadeghi and Goudarzi seem more plausible.



Sorry but the Quran was changed before Uthmann finalised it and after. Hadiths refer to lost suras and the Qurans incompleteness. There are different Arabic versions today and the Shia have a different version.

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Tisdall/shiah_additions/shiah_additions_koran.pdf

Textual Variants of the Qur'an
Links to anti-islamic propaganda sites.. Who are you trying to convince? Certainly not me.

There are no different versions of the Qur'an. There are different readings which are insignificant.
 
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