WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
If these scriptures are written for us to us there is little difference. They are given to given to believers by God.

There you have it. Written for us, not to us. Proper hermeneutics requires you to understand that distinction.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
There you have it. Written for us, not to us. Proper hermeneutics requires you to understand that distinction.

There you go playing with words again. Do you believe that these scriptures are God's Word given to believers by God. Your play on words is only a distraction to say that God's Word is not for God's people which is not biblical. God is not the God of the dead but of the living *MATTHEW 12:32. Now if ALL THESE THINGS ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION upon whom the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 and ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 and man is to live by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD *MATTHEW 4:4. Why do you not believe HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 which shows those who were once believers can FALL AWAY and depart from God's Word back into a life of sin to become unbelievers? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word).

LoveGodsWord · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
I can’t disprove a negative. The only proof I have is that you never post other verses from Hebrews except those 11. I’m sure at some point you’ve posted others, but it will be difficult to find any.

Why would I need to post other verses when HEBREWS 6:4-8 clearly state that believers can fall away from believing and following God's Word back to a life of known unreptantant sin to become unbelievers when you have already been provided these scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and all through the OP here? They are God's Word and they speak for themselves. Ignoring God's Word does not make them dissappear. If they are God's Word and not my words why do you not believe them?

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him.

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
“But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “T HIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:11-28‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It appears as if many have not read this, or if they have, they do not make the link between this and the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16).

Just as the high priest entered once into the Holy of Holies every year, and made an offering for the people (not everyone in the whole world, but those who were counted as God’s people), so had Christ made an offering that was satisfying to His Father (1 John 2:2). Those sins atoned for were atoned for forever. He need not make further sacrifices. And if those sins were atoned for, then they will never be counted against His people (Romans 4:7-8). This is why salvation cannot be lost. It’s bought and paid for. Salvation is of the Lord. There’s nothing we can bring to the table to affect this, not even obedience or disobedience. If you think that repentance will help you stay in good standing, then you must think your sin can separate you, which means you continually sacrifice the Son over and over.

Just so you are not talking past each other LoveGod'sWord holds to the Seventh-day Adventist view that the Day of Atonement began to be fulfilled in 1844, and involves an ongoing investigative judgment. So he would not agree with your assessment of the Day of Atonement fulfillment.

I would agree with you that Hebrews shows Jesus' sacrifice and presentation of that sacrifice, and that it was sufficient to fulfill the various sacrifices of the Old Testament, and that they need not be repeated.

Hebrews 1:3 sums up the completion of the purification for sins.

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10 also pictures this:

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

Even LGW would agree that the one sacrifice of Christ was the fulfillment of all the sacrifices, he would just differ on various points regarding the Day of Atonement, etc.

However, even within the framework you mentioned, even though Jesus has already completed the sacrifice and presentation in God's presence, it still appears there is an ongoing ministration of that grace which was secured by Jesus' once for all sacrifice.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

In the same way Hebrews 10 encourages them not to fall back, and to continue to meet together.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is the sacrifice for sins, once for all. However, he seems to indicate that even to those he is writing to if they reject that sacrifice, there is no other sacrifice that can save them. In context this is likely speaking of the futility of returning to judaism, and its sacrifices, falling away from the faith, for which they had previously taken their stand.

To turn their back on Christ would be to turn away from the only provision they have, the true sacrifice.

Now, having said that, at the end of the chapter he says:

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteousg" one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

He seems to present the possibility of turning back. But he also affirms that he sees them not turning back, and he is writing for their encouragement.

Do you then interpret the warnings as those things that are necessary for God's people to ultimately persevere, but also that they will always persevere?

I am trying to understand your perspective.

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
Those Jews who rejected the gospel. You still need to keep the context in mind as to who the audience is.

The audience had already received the light and taken a stand. The implication is that they were in danger of falling back to judaism, which would be a rejection of Christ and His sacrifice.

10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

Also chapter 5 gives context to the chapter 6 passage:

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

They had not grown in their faith as they should, but they had become infants in Christ, and he affirms they had been in the faith long enough to be teachers.

Hebrews 3 says this of the audience:

1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

and

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

JIMINZ · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Only if you do not believe the scriptures provided. Do you believe the scriptures posted *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11; 2 TIMOTHY 3:16; MATTHEW 4:4; MATTHEW 12:32. If so what do you think they mean?

I feel confident when I say, I am positive they don't mean the same thing to me they apparently mean to you.

I cannot figure what your trying to say by clumping them together the way you have, the only thing where I can see any connection is, they all come from the Bible.

JIMINZ · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
If these scriptures are written for us to us there is little difference. They are given to given to believers by God. Your play on words is only a distraction to say that God's Word is not for God's people in the "present tense" which is not biblical. God is not the God of the dead but of the living *MATTHEW 12:32. Now if ALL THESE THINGS ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION upon whom the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11 and ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 and man is to live by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD *MATTHEW 4:4. Why do you not believe HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 which shows those who were once believers can FALL AWAY and depart from God's Word back into a life of sin to become unbelievers? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word).

Is it that you live in 2019 that forces you to believe what you do about being in the Generation upon whom the ends of the world are come?
When were you taught such a fallacy?

Paul did say "OUR ADMONITION" upon whom the ends of the world are come.

He was not speaking to or about YOU today, he was speaking to and about those to whom he was literally speaking. ........Them of that time.

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

In 2 Peter we have reference to another group who seem to have gone astray, and are beyond recovery. He writes to the faithful to warn against these false teachers:

15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g]">[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

The wording of having escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ refers back to chapter 1:

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a]">[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
There you go playing with words again. Do you believe that these scriptures are God's Word given to believers by God. Your play on words is only a distraction to say that God's Word is not for God's people which is not biblical.

Let’s see if that is true.

Hammster said:
Scripture is for us, not to us. That’s your error, and why you fail often at context.

Hammster said:
So no, not written to us, but it was saved for us. Proper biblical hermeneutics understands this.

Looks like you’ve made a false accusation.

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Ignoring God's Word does not make them dissappear

I’m not the one only quoting 11 verses from Hebrews. In fact, I had a lengthy post on Hebrews 9 that showed, from scripture, how your verses are being used with no regard to scripture.

JIMINZ · Jul 29, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
As shown earlier in post # 195 linked, these warnings are to believers not to depart from the faith back to a life of known unrepentant sin.

It would appear as though the Scriptures which you keep posting have the sole purpose of REFUTING the Doctrine of OSAS.

LoveGodsWord said:
If you cannot prove your claims why do you not believe the scriptures that are only sent in love as a help to you?I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.

Why do you assume everyone needs your help, when you have said yourself, you follow no man, why should anyone follow what you have said?

LoveGodsWord said:
God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word). Those who are not His Sheep do not hear

You make a very bold accusation,
"Those who do not listen and believe what I am saying are not His Sheep"

You say you LoveGodsWord then you go about condemning those who do not adhere to your Doctrine.

Check your attitude at the door.

1 Jn. 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

tall73 said:
Just so you are not talking past each other LoveGod'sWord holds to the Seventh-day Adventist view that the Day of Atonement began to be fulfilled in 1844, and involves an ongoing investigative judgment. So he would not agree with your assessment of the Day of Atonement fulfillment.

I would agree with you that Hebrews shows Jesus' sacrifice and presentation of that sacrifice, and that it was sufficient to fulfill the various sacrifices of the Old Testament, and that they need not be repeated.

Hebrews 1:3 sums up the completion of the purification for sins.

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10 also pictures this:

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

Even LGW would agree that the one sacrifice of Christ was the fulfillment of all the sacrifices, he would just differ on various points regarding the Day of Atonement, etc.

However, even within the framework you mentioned, even though Jesus has already completed the sacrifice and presentation in God's presence, it still appears there is an ongoing ministration of that grace which was secured by Jesus' once for all sacrifice.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

In the same way Hebrews 10 encourages them not to fall back, and to continue to meet together.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is the sacrifice for sins, once for all. However, he seems to indicate that even to those he is writing to if they reject that sacrifice, there is no other sacrifice that can save them. In context this is likely speaking of the futility of returning to judaism, and its sacrifices, falling away from the faith, for which they had previously taken their stand.

To turn their back on Christ would be to turn away from the only provision they have, the true sacrifice.

Now, having said that, at the end of the chapter he says:

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteousg" one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

He seems to present the possibility of turning back. But he also affirms that he sees them not turning back, and he is writing for their encouragement.

Do you then interpret the warnings as those things that are necessary for God's people to ultimately persevere, but also that they will always persevere?

I am trying to understand your perspective.

Thanks for this post.

This isn’t a typical letter to a church. One argument is that it’s the written record of Paul’s sermon when he preached in synagogues in new cities. The writer, then, had three groups in mind.

1) believers; 2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel; and 3) unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about him. (Stolen from MacArthur)

What you quoted is most likely addressed to 2 and 3. And then he makes the distinction between himself and others who are saved, and those who were not yet saved.

Bladerunner · Jul 29, 2019

JIMINZ said:
Thank you for the information, check these out.

My post #374 & My Post #388

It took a while but I read your other post..Appears they agree with my words.

Blade

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
Thanks for this post.

This isn’t a typical letter to a church. One argument is that it’s the written record of Paul’s sermon when he preached in synagogues in new cities. The writer, then, had three groups in mind.

1) believers; 2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel; and 3) unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about him. (Stolen from MacArthur)

What you quoted is most likely addressed to 2 and 3. And then he makes the distinction between himself and others who are saved, and those who were not yet saved.

Do you have evidence of groups two and three? He seems to address them as believers consistently. And he tends to include himself with them in "we" and "us" statements.

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

tall73 said:
The audience had already received the light and taken a stand. The implication is that they were in danger of falling back to judaism, which would be a rejection of Christ and His sacrifice.

10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

Also chapter 5 gives context to the chapter 6 passage:

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

They had not grown in their faith as they should, but they had become infants in Christ, and he affirms they had been in the faith long enough to be teachers.

Hebrews 3 says this of the audience:

1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

and

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

I see what you are saying, but the we must also keep in mind that there are those who will appear to be saved, but fall away when things get tough. Those would be the second and third seeds on the parable of the sower.

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
I see what you are saying, but the we must also keep in mind that there are those who will appear to be saved, but fall away when things get tough. Those would be the second and third seeds on the parable of the sower.

I would agree some fall away when things get tough. But the way he describes them is more than just intellectually interested. And that is what I am struggling to understand.

My personal take currently is that if we are in Him no one can snatch us out of His hand.

However, it does seem possible to turn your back on Him completely, and if we do that, what basis is there for salvation?

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

tall73 said:
Do you have evidence of groups two and three? He seems to address them as believers consistently. And he tends to include himself with them in "we" and "us" statements.

If that’s the case, then 10:39 eliminates any possibility of falling away, and we can move on.

JIMINZ · Jul 29, 2019

Bladerunner said:
It took a while but I read your other post..Appears they agree with my words.

Blade

HUMMMM imagine that. :scratch:

Hammster · Jul 29, 2019

tall73 said:
I would agree some fall away when things get tough. But the way he describes them is more than just intellectually interested. And that is what I am struggling to understand.

My personal take currently is that if we are in Him no one can snatch us out of His hand.

However, it does seem possible to turn your back on Him completely, and if we do that, what basis is there for salvation?

What happens, though, to sheep who wander away? Would the Shepherd be good if He just said, “well, they turned their back so I’ll let them go”?

Shepherds protect from outside attacks, and from the wanderings of sheep. See psalm 23.

tall73 · Jul 29, 2019

Hammster said:
If that’s the case, then 10:39 eliminates any possibility of falling away, and we can move on.

That is why I am asking your view of it. I agree 39 seems to say that he does not expect them to fall away.

Yet the whole book is clearly a caution against falling away. So is it your view that they were elect, and that God provided the encouragement they needed in order not to fall away through this address?

WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

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