Are you saved or delusional?

aiki said:

I have never attacked your character. But I have criticized your thinking which is front-and-center in every assertion and line of reasoning you employ in your posts. There is no way to properly address your mistaken assertions without addressing their cause, which is the simplistic way you think. If you don't like my criticism of your faulty logic and reasoning, don't make posts that are filled with both.



That's fine with me, given that I don't address your character in my posts, only your poor reasoning.



But your views on Scripture are your views. Your views are unavoidably about you, about how you handle Scripture, about how you reason things through, about the tactics you employ in debate. You cannot separate yourself from your own words and thoughts.

Click to expand...

I believe that is splitting hairs. You attack my reasoning, and you are attacking me. Please stick to the Scriptures alone please. Nothing is to be gained by making it personal. Truth is determined by God's Word and not any one person's life. My belief is not my own, either. My belief is derived by reading and believing the plain words of Scripture. Also, I have discovered a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church who believes the same way I do in regards to Soteriology.

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

They unfortunately only exist on the Eastern seaboard. So attending at their church is difficult (because they are hundreds of miles from where I live). They are the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church (that is somewhat descent in size) that believes salvation is in: "God grace through faith + the works of God done through us in the Sanctification Process." They are still small in number by way of comparison to other Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches in regards to Soteriology. They are definitely of the "few" that Jesus talks about.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe that is splitting hairs. You attack my reasoning, and you are attacking me. Please stick to the Scriptures alone please. Nothing is to be gained by making it personal. Truth is determined by God's Word and not any one person's life.

Click to expand...

Count it all joy, brethren, when you encounter fiery trials, knowing that the trials of your faith produces patience, and patience endurance, and endurance, long suffering, and long suffering righteousness, and righteousness sanctification leading to eternal life.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Even better than follow means obey, or as good with it, follow Jesus goes to everlasting life. Follow anything else goes to destruction.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is only one mediator between God and man. No man can serve two masters, for he will hate the one and love the other. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

The problem is that while people like the idea of Jesus and being forgiven of sin, they do not like the idea of truly following Him and or believing everything that He said. I say this not to wound those who do not follow the Lord (as the Bible describes), but I say this as a call of love to come and follow the Lord. For He is waiting for all to to pick up their cross, and deny themselves.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe that is splitting hairs. You attack my reasoning, and you are attacking me.

Click to expand...

Well, of course, it's your reasoning, isn't it? Is your reasoning the sum total of who you are, though? No. You may well be a perfectly nice, interesting person. I don't know. You haven't said anything about who you are. But you have demonstrated your thinking in what you've written and it is flawed. And since your thinking is inextricably bound up with your arguments and perspective, it is impossible for me to separate them from each other in answering your assertions and arguments. So, no, it isn't splitting hairs. It is the "nature of the beast" in these discussion forums.

Bible Highlighter said:

Please stick to the Scriptures alone please. Nothing is to be gained by making it personal.

Click to expand...

Oh, I stick to Scripture well enough, but I can't escape having to deal with how you reason through it.

Bible Highlighter said:

My belief is not my own, either. I have discovered a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church who believes the same way I do in regards to Soteriology.

Click to expand...

That's nice. It is you, however, with whom I'm discussing things, not some church utterly unknown to me.

aiki said:

That's nice. It is you, however, with whom I'm discussing things, not some church utterly unknown to me.

Click to expand...

I said what I did because you were giving me the impression like it was something only I discovered. I am not the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Christian on the planet who believes salvation is by "God's grace through faith + Sanctification by the Spirit (holy living)."

We are smaller in number, but this only helps to support the words of Jesus that says, "narrow is the way", and "FEW be there that finds it."

Eternal Security is the popular view of salvation among Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches. It is not the narrow way or the few be there that find it type of belief.

aiki said:

I have never attacked your character. But I have criticized your thinking which is front-and-center in every assertion and line of reasoning you employ in your posts. There is no way to properly address your mistaken assertions without addressing their cause, which is the simplistic way you think. If you don't like my criticism of your faulty logic and reasoning, don't make posts that are filled with both.



That's fine with me, given that I don't address your character in my posts, only your poor reasoning.



But your views on Scripture are your views. Your views are unavoidably about you, about how you handle Scripture, about how you reason things through, about the tactics you employ in debate. You cannot separate yourself from your own words and thoughts.

Click to expand...

Why is it? I have noticed over the years that a vast majority of apostates make their character the issue, and can care less about how the Word of God is distorted and denigrated?

And, why do many apostates set this condition, that we must first explain all their misunderstood and distorted verses that they pulled out of a hat before they will listen?

They stonewall with that condition, using it as their means for excusing themselves for ignoring verses given that are plainly spoken.

Its like watching the Democrats in congress in action. And, in a way? It is the same spirit at work. It is!

Bible Highlighter said:

I said what I did because you were giving me the impression like it was something only I discovered. I am not the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Christian on the planet who believes salvation is by "God's grace through faith + Sanctification by the Spirit (holy living)."

We are smaller in number, but this only helps to support the words of Jesus that says, "narrow is the way", and "FEW be there that finds it."

Eternal Security is the popular view of salvation among Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches. It is not the narrow way or the few be there that find it type of belief.

Click to expand...

Few to Few, SHALOM Few ! REJOICE ! HALLELUYAH ! MARANANTHA !

genez said:

Why is it? I have noticed over the years that a vast majority of apostates make their character the issue, and can care less about how the Word of God is distorted and denigrated?

And, why do many apostates set this condition, that we must first explain all their misunderstood and distorted verses that they pulled out of a hat before they will listen?

They stonewall with that condition, using it as their means for excusing themselves for ignoring verses given that are plainly spoken.

Its like watching the Democrats in congress in action. And, in a way? It is the same spirit at work. It is!

Click to expand...

You fail to understand that my character was attacked and that the Scriptures and or the belief were not discussed alone. When I have brought up a verse with you before, you said it something different in the Greek based on what your Pastor said. So the verse cannot be read and believed plainly in the English. But do you read your Bible in the Greek or in the English? Can you trust what you read because it is in the English? This is not the first time I have run into this problem before in the Eternal Security belief. I heave heard Eternal Security proponents tell me (as a part of the Eternal Security belief), Fear does not mean fear. They have also said, Inherit the Kingdom of God does not mean inherit the Kingdom of God according to how the Bible defines it, etc. This is a part of the Eternal Security belief. I see it as inconsistent. Eternal Security verses are to be read plainly in the English, but when it comes to verses that support Conditional Salvation, this cannot always be the case. Also, on the one hand the Eternal Security belief appears to say that one can be for holy living (that no believer practices sin), and yet on the other hand, this belief appears to say that one can abide in sin on some small level and still be saved (Thereby rendering holy living as being useless).

Bible Highlighter said:

I said what I did because you were giving me the impression like it was something only I discovered. I am not the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Christian on the planet who believes salvation is by "God's grace through faith + Sanctification by the Spirit (holy living)."

We are smaller in number, but this only helps to support the words of Jesus that says, "narrow is the way", and "FEW be there that finds it."

Click to expand...

Well, here's the problem with this sort of thinking: If the majority came to believe what you do, would your view then be false? You see how appealing to numbers (few or many) is a fallacious way of reasoning? This is the logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Populum. Essentially, its arguing that, because a certain number of people believe a thing, it is therefore true. It is typical of your thinking, however, that you marshal Scripture inappropriately in defense of your fallacious reasoning.

aiki said:

Well, here's the problem with this sort of thinking: If the majority came to believe what you do, would your view then be false? You see how appealing to numbers (few or many) is a fallacious way of reasoning? This is the logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Populum. Essentially, its arguing that, because a certain number of people believe a thing, it is therefore true. It is typical of your thinking, however, that you marshal Scripture inappropriately in defense of your fallacious reasoning.

Click to expand...

Then how are the words of Jesus true then? How is the Eternal Security crowd in the narrow way? There are others who did not accept Jesus but they believe in GOD, and also believe they can sin and still be saved and that they can live somewhat a good life and they will enter into Heaven. How is that much different than just having a belief that Jesus is the Savior? The devils also believe and tremble (James 2:19).

aiki said:

Well, here's the problem with this sort of thinking: If the majority came to believe what you do, would your view then be false? You see how appealing to numbers (few or many) is a fallacious way of reasoning? This is the logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Populum. Essentially, its arguing that, because a certain number of people believe a thing, it is therefore true. It is typical of your thinking, however, that you marshal Scripture inappropriately in defense of your fallacious reasoning.

Click to expand...

Every apostle would be criminally insane to be mum on the fact we could lose our salvation. It would not be shown in some convoluted way as the apostates lay claim to. It would be plain. Bold. And, in your face.

"If you do that! You will lose your salvation and go to the Lake of Fire!"

That is what we would be seeing all over the Scriptures - plain as day! God would be remiss to not state it boldly and in your face if we can lose our salvation.

But, then if that were the case? Believers would behave good to save their butts from the fire. Their obedience would no longer be motivated as it should be. That is? Out of love and the desire to please the Lord.

Apostates are cruel task masters looking for a flock to enslave in fear and insecurity. They take pride in their ability to manipulate others.

genez said:

Every apostle would be criminally insane to be mum on the fact we could lose our salvation. It would not be shown in some convoluted way as the apostates lay claim to. It would be plain. Bold. And, in your face.

"If you do that! You will lose your salvation and go to the Lake of Fire!"

That is what we would be seeing all over the Scriptures - plain as day! God would be remiss to not state it boldly and in your face if we can lose our salvation.

But, then? Believers would be good to save their butts from the fire. Their obedience would no longer be motivated as it should be. That is? Out of love and the desire to please the Lord. Apostates are cruel task masters looking for a flock to enslave in fear and insecurity.

Click to expand...

You don't see it because you don't want to see it. It is plain as day that...

The Bible’s teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

genez said:

Every apostle would be criminally insane to be mum on the fact we could lose our salvation. It would not be shown in some convoluted way as the apostates lay claim to. It would be plain. Bold. And, in your face.

"If you do that! You will lose your salvation and go to the Lake of Fire!"

That is what we would be seeing all over the Scriptures - plain as day! God would be remiss to not state it boldly and in your face if we can lose our salvation.

But, then? Believers would be good to save their butts from the fire. Their obedience would no longer be motivated as it should be. That is? Out of love and the desire to please the Lord. Apostates are cruel task masters looking for a flock to enslave in fear and insecurity.

Click to expand...

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

St_Worm2 said:

Hi @MasterYourLife, the folks in Matt 7:22, who were on their way to the Lake of Fire (from the Great White Throne) told Jesus that they didn’t deserve to go there because of all the mighty and miraculous deeds they had done in His Name. Jesus replied to them and said, 'no you didn’t, the only deeds that you did were evil, and you certainly didn’t do anything in My name because, “I NEVER knew you”'

So, we have two accounts that are diametrically opposed to one another, 1. the Lord’s, and 2. the folks He was addressing in v22 at the Judgment.

Whose account do you believe is the accurate one, and who do you think was either lying or deceived?

Thanks!

—David

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’​

.

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

But the point here is that they worked iniquity and sin. That was the problem. This is why they were told to depart from Jesus. Most Eternal Security proponents (not all) I have talked with say they can sin and still be saved on some level. The kind of belief that works iniquity is obviously condemned in Matthew 7:23. What is the context of "iniquity"? Doing what Jesus says. Matthew 7:26-27 says that the person who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So it is more than just believing in Jesus, but we have to obey what He teaches, too. If not, things are not going to go well for us.

Click to expand...

Hello Bible Highlighter, actually, I believe that you've missed the point of the passage, and thereby, the principle problem.

Yes, the Lord tells us that they "worked iniquity and sin"/"practiced lawlessness", but that's all that a non-believer is capable of doing (cf 1 Corinthians 2:14). That is, therefore, all that these folks were capable of too, since we know that they were ~never~ Christians (as the Lord made perfectly clear when He said to them, "I ~NEVER~ knew you", no matter what their "claims" to Him in the Judgment are ).

Also, this passage has nothing to do with OSAS. Even proponents of the OSAS doctrine fully admit that for someone to be, "Always Saved", they must be "Once Saved" first (so to speak), and we know that the folks in v22 ~never~ were.

--David

Bible Highlighter said:

Then how are the words of Jesus true then? How is the Eternal Security crowd in the narrow way?

Click to expand...

Please think for a moment: Does Jesus ever say what he means by "few"? Ten? Five hundred? A million? There have been many billions of people just over the last two millenia who have gone on to a lost eternity. Even a billion people saved from among the estimated 108 billion people who have lived throughout human history is a relatively small number. That would be .9% of the total number of people who have lived! But is this what Jesus meant by "few"? Or was the number much more radically small? Only in the tens of thousands, maybe? That would be extremely few out of the billions who have lived! This, though, is what it sounds like you might believe: that only a microscopic handful of people will make it into God's kingdom. I can't reconcile that small a number to the loving, gracious, merciful God of Scripture. In fact, if that is what Christ meant by "few," it would be obscene and monstrous. No, I think the number of people who hold to OSAS come no where close to exceeding what Jesus meant by "few." In any case, on the basis of what Jesus said about the number who find the narrow gate and way, an argument can't be made for or against OSAS. We just have no clear idea what "few" meant.

The OSAS crowd are in the Narrow Way because the Narrow Way is a Person not a system of behaviour (John 10:9; 1 John 5:11-12), a Redeemer and Friend, not a divine scale balancing good works and bad. The OSAS crowd are in the Narrow Way because they are perfectly justified, sanctified, redeemed, regenerated, adopted, and reconciled by and in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:20-21; Romans 8:15; Titus 3:5), not by anything they do. It is in him - and ONLY in him - that anyone gains acceptance with God (Ephesians 1:6; Acts 4:12). And that is because, unlike us, Jesus is absolutely holy and perfect. No man can do good works sufficient to find acceptance with God. God's standard is perfection and no man can live well enough to meet that standard - not before they are saved or after. And so, God has made Christ the basis upon which He accepts us. And because Jesus' perfection never alters, those who are in him by the Spirit never cease to be accepted by God the Father.

Bible Highlighter said:

You don't see it because you don't want to see it. It is plain as day that...

The Bible’s teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Click to expand...

See, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said you "Throw the Elephant." Most - if not all - of the verses/passages you've cited above don't actually support your case. But who's going to spend the enormous amount of time necessary to explain why? And this is why people use the "Throw the Elephant" tactic. It stifles opposition under a mountain of words.

aiki said:

Please think for a moment: Does Jesus ever say what he means by "few"? Ten? Five hundred? A million? There have been many billions of people just over the last two millenia who have gone on to a lost eternity. Even a billion people saved from among the estimated 108 billion people who have lived throughout human history is a relatively small number. That would be .9% of the total number of people who have lived! But is this what Jesus meant by "few"? Or was the number much more radically small? Only in the tens of thousands, maybe? That would be extremely few out of the billions who have lived! This, though, is what it sounds like you might believe: that only a microscopic handful of people will make it into God's kingdom. I can't reconcile that small a number to the loving, gracious, merciful God of Scripture. In fact, if that is what Christ meant by "few," it would be obscene and monstrous. No, I think the number of people who hold to OSAS come no where close to exceeding what Jesus meant by "few." In any case, on the basis of what Jesus said about the number who find the narrow gate and way, an argument can't be made for or against OSAS. We just have no clear idea what "few" meant.

The OSAS crowd are in the Narrow Way because the Narrow Way is a Person not a system of behaviour (John 10:9; 1 John 5:11-12), a Redeemer and Friend, not a divine scale balancing good works and bad. The OSAS crowd are in the Narrow Way because they are perfectly justified, sanctified, redeemed, regenerated, adopted, and reconciled by and in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:20-21; Romans 8:15; Titus 3:5), not by anything they do. It is in him - and ONLY in him - that anyone gains acceptance with God (Ephesians 1:6; Acts 4:12). And that is because, unlike us, Jesus is absolutely holy and perfect. No man can do good works sufficient to find acceptance with God. God's standard is perfection and no man can live well enough to meet that standard - not before they are saved or after. And so, God has made Christ the basis upon which He accepts us. And because Jesus' perfection never alters, those who are in him by the Spirit never cease to be accepted by God the Father.

Click to expand...

The "narrow" way is about believers who find accurate teachings and willingly live in them, and by them. The word translated 'strait' is not old English for the word 'straight.' The word 'strait' meant strict! The teacher has got to be a stickler for accuracy! For there is not much room for error when walking into the battle field riddled with evils of the enemy. That is why narrow can also be rendered 'under pressure', or 'compressed.'

Jesus was not speaking of only a few finding eternal life. He was speaking of the life He came to give those who believe. "Life more abundantly!" Few find it. For few are willing to endure the pressures one will face when the enemy resists those seeking to secure sound doctrine to live by. Instead, many will take the 'broad and wide road.' That is why we see thousands of denominations. Each is a special emphasis that is designed to appeal to the emotions of believers who are not serious about maturing in Christ. Instead, they seek a place their flesh can feel at home with as to fulfill what they feel is their religious obligation to God.

Many Christians. Few find the life more abundantly because of the inner suffering those seeking such a life must endure to break through and look back.... seeing a trail of bombed out holes in the field that they were spared of because they (by God's grace) were given the needed information that the Holy Spirit utilized in His guidance. Guidance that could only be given if the believer was receiving sound doctrine.

Notice what Jesus told his disciples after warning about "few will find it.'?



What Jesus spoke about was all about sound doctrine vs false doctrine!

The broad and wide way is the wide smorgasbord of all sorts of false teachings designed to appeal to the weaknesses of believers who find sound doctrine distasteful! Thousands of denominations and sects are on that 'broad and wide' way!

Only a few Christians will find in their time on earth the 'life more abundantly.' The very inner life that Jesus so desires to bless all his people with.

Its not about only a few will find salvation. Its about only a few out of the many saved will find the deep and profound inner life that the Holy Spirit will fill us with when we have fought and won the battle to secure a heart filled with Sound Doctrine!

The following is the root for the existence of the 'broad and wide' road...


A few will find it.

Because, Paul said most dislike the discomfort that comes from the pressures that will resist the believer being exposed to truly sound doctrinal teachings. Paul told Timothy that many will not endure / put up with what sound doctrinal intake brings. The resisting pressure that must come to those who want to go all the way to maturity in Christ. A maturity which demands we keep getting sound doctrine to do so.

Many flee to appealing false teachings so the demonic pressures will back off, and they can seek to live their lives as they want to.

aiki said:

The OSAS crowd are in the Narrow Way because the Narrow Way is a Person not a system of behaviour (John 10:9; 1 John 5:11-12), a Redeemer and Friend, not a divine scale balancing good works and bad.

Click to expand...

Boom.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello Bible Highlighter, actually, I believe that you've missed the point of the passage. Yes, the Lord tells us that they "worked iniquity and sin"/"practiced lawlessness", which is all that a non-believer is capable of doing (cf 1 Corinthians 2:14), and these folks were ~never~ Christians .. as the Lord made clear when He said, "I ~NEVER~ knew you" (no matter what their "claims" to Him in the Judgment are ).

John 17
3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
​

Also, this passage has nothing to do with OSAS. Even a proponent of the OSAS doctrine fully admits that for someone to be, "Always Saved", they must be "Saved" first (and the folks in v22 ~never~ were).

--David

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
.​

Click to expand...

What’s interesting are the threads preaching living pure lives like Pharisees based on human efforts. It’s great to preach purity, the Apostles did a lot of that but it was always anchored on the Joy in Christ and the Righteousness of God.

For example, there’s another thread on a Christian pastor who developed his own list of purity traditions. Down to purity rings and oaths. He just recently denied the faith, said he was wrong, left his wife and says he is no longer a Christian. Even going so far as to deny clear Biblical morals and embracing LGBTQ.

Article:

Joshua Harris’ former church responds to news of him leaving wife, Christianity

Thread:
Joshua Harris’ former church responds to news of him leaving wife, Christianity

Hello @redleghunter, yes, that is very sad news indeed about Joshua Harris, and a sad reminder of why we all need to pray often for our pastors and priests, who so often find themselves in the cross hairs of the enemy.

As I see he said (on social media, unfortunately w/o elaboration), "many people tell me that there is a different way to practice faith and I want to remain open to this", and if he actually tried to practice his faith/live a holy life (the kind of life that he wrote about in his articles and books) apart from being (as you just said), "anchored on the Joy of Christ and the Righteousness of God", then a shipwreck of his faith would not only seem possible, but probable

Great points and things to consider! Thank you for those

--David
p.s. - "Anchored on the Joy of Christ and the Righteousness of God" reminds me of the wonderful words to a couple of our hymns, Rock of Ages and My Hope Is Built On Nothing Less (the Solid Rock). Here they are for anyone who cares to remember them, or to read them for the first time. Sadly, hymns like these are no longer a part of worship in many of our churches today.