Why secularism?

Pooja Sadhu said:

Psalms 9:17 says, “The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, and so do all the nations that forget God.” If nations forget God, or in other words embrace secularism and forgo godliness, they will “go down to the realm of the dead,” meaning they will face the wrath of God.

Like they say in English, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are deceived people who believe secularism for nations is a good thing. But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

Click to expand...

While I have no affection for secularism, I think it's a bit of a stretch to interpret Psalm 9 as an indictment of secularism.

By all means, let's bring God back to public life. But I think you're interpreting that passage a bit more broadly than its historical context would've permitted.

thecolorsblend said:

While I have no affection for secularism, I think it's a bit of a stretch to interpret Psalm 9 as an indictment of secularism.

By all means, let's bring God back to public life. But I think you're interpreting that passage a bit more broadly than its historical context would've permitted.

Click to expand...

People who belong to a different religion than yours don't necessarily want your God brought back into public life and think a secular nation is the better alternative.

Speedwell said:

People who belong to a different religion than yours don't necessarily want your God brought back into public life and think a secular nation is the better alternative.

Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s a better alternative though. That doesn’t work for me personally. So I’ll continue pushing my religion into public life as much as possible.

thecolorsblend said:

I don’t think it’s a better alternative though. That doesn’t work for me personally. So I’ll continue pushing my religion into public life as much as possible.

Click to expand...

That's fine, as long as you don't expect the government to do it for you and you are ready for some pushback from people with other Gods, or none.

Speedwell said:

That's fine, as long as you don't expect the government to do it for you and you are ready for some pushback from people with other Gods, or none.

Click to expand...

See, that’s the thing right there, this works best with the government’s help. It may be necessary to rewrite some laws or even parts of the Constitution.

But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make, you know?

thecolorsblend said:

See, that’s the thing right there, this works best with the government’s help. It may be necessary to rewrite some laws or even parts of the Constitution.

But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make, you know?

Click to expand...

And when Evangelicals ban the Mass or veneration of the Virgin, what then?

No religion deserves any favoritism or stamp of approval from government. Even entertaining the idea implies that a religion is too feeble or ineffectual to thrive on its own.

thecolorsblend said:

See, that’s the thing right there, this works best with the government’s help. It may be necessary to rewrite some laws or even parts of the Constitution.

But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make, you know?

Click to expand...

Any form of government support for religion is counterproductive.

I too think strict liberal secularism is overrated. We're promised that it brings about freedom and the ability for people to live as they want, when in reality all it's seemed to do is change the rules and values of society away from Christian ones to Secularist ones.

I've come to the conclusion as of late that no society offers freedom and if I have to choose why should I not choose a Christian society over the secular and liberal especially since I am a Christian? As Christians I think we have to realize eventually that we have a right to exercise political power for religious reasons, despite the objections of the atheists. We should stop playing by their rules.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I too think strict liberal secularism is overrated. We're promised that it brings about freedom and the ability for people to live as they want, when in reality all it's seemed to do is change the rules and values of society away from Christian ones to Secularist ones.

I've come to the conclusion as of late that no society offers freedom and if I have to choose why should I not choose a Christian society over the secular and liberal especially since I am a Christian?

Click to expand...

So go find a Christian society and live in it. However, if you want to live in a religiously diverse society then a secular government is your best bet, whatever your particular religious persuasion is.

As Christians I think we have to realize eventually that we have a right to exercise political power for religious reasons, despite the objections of the atheists. We should stop playing by their rules.

Click to expand...

What gives you the right to impose Christianity on others by force?

Secularists have been inconsistent in supporting certain religious positions over others. That doesn’t mean we should too. Everyone has a right not to be forced to do any religious practice. But nobody has a right not to see or hear others exercising their religion.

Percivale said:

Secularists have been inconsistent in supporting certain religious positions over others. That doesn’t mean we should too. Everyone has a right not to be forced to do any religious practice. But nobody has a right not to see or hear others exercising their religion.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Do you have any examples?

Speedwell said:

So go find a Christian society and live in it. However, if you want to live in a religiously diverse society then a secular government is your best bet, whatever your particular religious persuasion is.

Click to expand...

Moving is certainly an option, but it isn't a necessity. People can stick around to challenge the system. Just look at the Muslims being invited into Europe, you think they aren't challenging European norms and ethics? I don't know what makes you think living in a religiously diverse society is inherently good.

Speedwell said:

What gives you the right to impose Christianity on others by force?

Click to expand...

Nothing gives me the right and I wouldn't impose Christianity on anyone. Christian values are a different matter. Much like how secularism as a belief is not imposed on anyone, but it's values certainty are imposed through coercion.

Unless you like in an anarchic society where there are no standards, someone's moral philosophy or ideas are going to dictate the running of society. Secularism is no more innocent any of the ancient Christian regimes in this regard. Some can be more harsh than others (State encouraged Atheism like China or the Soviet Union), while some can be more tame (such as hate crime laws in the UK for criticism of Islam).

Quite simply the idea that we live in freedom, ever, is a myth.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Moving is certainly an option, but it isn't a necessity. People can stick around to challenge the system. Just look at the Muslims being invited into Europe, you think they aren't challenging European norms and ethics? I don't know what makes you think living in a religiously diverse society is inherently good.



Nothing gives me the right and I wouldn't impose Christianity on anyone. Christian values are a different matter. Much like how secularism as a belief is not imposed on anyone, but it's values certainty are imposed through coercion.

Unless you like in an anarchic society where there are no standards, someone's moral philosophy or ideas are going to dictate the running of society. Secularism is no more innocent any of the ancient Christian regimes in this regard. Some can be more harsh than others (State encouraged Atheism like China or the Soviet Union), while some can be more tame (such as hate crime laws in the UK for criticism of Islam).

Quite simply the idea that we live in freedom, ever, is a myth.

Click to expand...

So you don't think it possible for Christians living in a diverse society to participate in shaping the values of that society?

Speedwell said:

So you don't think it possible for Christians living in a diverse society to participate in shaping the values of that society?

Click to expand...

It's entirely impossible. It just doesn't seem preferable. Christians accepted liberal premises and we've seen where that has lead with the decline of Christian values as respected by the wider society.

Christianity is no longer the guiding ethos of the western world. For Christians to participate involves a challenge to that secular liberal order and view of the world.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It's entirely impossible. It just doesn't seem preferable. Christians accepted liberal premises and we've seen where that has lead with the decline of Christian values as respected by the wider society.

Christianity is no longer the guiding ethos of the western world. For Christians to participate involves a challenge to that secular liberal order and view of the world.

Click to expand...

It might help me understand if you would mention some particular issues you have in mind. What values are no longer respected by the wider society?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I too think strict liberal secularism is overrated. We're promised that it brings about freedom and the ability for people to live as they want, when in reality all it's seemed to do is change the rules and values of society away from Christian ones to Secularist ones.

I've come to the conclusion as of late that no society offers freedom and if I have to choose why should I not choose a Christian society over the secular and liberal especially since I am a Christian? As Christians I think we have to realize eventually that we have a right to exercise political power for religious reasons, despite the objections of the atheists. We should stop playing by their rules.

Click to expand...

As long as you are aware that non Christians have the right to stand against you in that endeavour.

Larnievc said:

As long as you are aware that non Christians have the right to stand against you in that endeavour.

Click to expand...

Along side some of the Christians, depending on what "values" he has in mind.