Met. Joseph doesn't seem to mind praying with heretics.

Lukaris · Jul 28, 2019

Each cleric prayed individually for their respective churches to bring attention to the plight of Middle Eastern Christians.

Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

dzheremi · Jul 28, 2019

Yeah, the day I see Armenians praying in Greek, I'll eat one of their pointy hats!

JasonV · Jul 28, 2019

Lukaris said:
Each cleric prayed individually for their respective churches to bring attention to the plight of Middle Eastern Christians.

No. Met Joseph was clear: "We also thank God for the opportunity to pray together..."

It was a JOINT prayer service. Watch the YouTube video. It wasn't a chance encounter where everyone was doing their own thing. They did it together.

Lukaris · Jul 28, 2019

JasonV said:
No. Met Joseph was clear: "We also thank God for the opportunity to pray together..."

It was a JOINT prayer service. Watch the YouTube video. It wasn't a chance encounter where everyone was doing their own thing. They did it together.

OK, but what is wrong in this case when Christians have a basic agreement that their flocks are suffering? They are telling the world that the Lord’s people are being persecuted. How else can they convey this to the world? I don’t see any theology being discussed.

All4Christ · Jul 28, 2019

GoingByzantine · Jul 28, 2019

I don't see a problem with this.

JasonV · Jul 28, 2019

Lukaris said:
OK, but what is wrong in this case when Christians have a basic agreement that their flocks are suffering? They are telling the world that the Lord’s people are being persecuted. How else can they convey this to the world? I don’t see any theology being discussed.

GoingByzantine said:
I don't see a problem with this.

Because it violates the canons forbidding prayer with heretics.

Holy Canons Related to Ecumenism

ArmyMatt · Jul 28, 2019

it wasn't a joint service. doing a prayer with the heterodox present is not the same as a joint service with them. as a bishop, in order for it to actually be a service, His Eminence would have been wearing his omophorion and epitrachelion. he wore neither, so it wasn't a service.

also, since only the Orthodox were doing anything in this clip, it's really no different than when the heterodox are standing near a prayer we are having and leading.

and His Eminence doesn't answer to you or me, so putting this out as a thread is a really childish way to just get a dig at the rest of us.

prodromos · Jul 29, 2019

JasonV said:
Because it violates the canons forbidding prayer with heretics.

Holy Canons Related to Ecumenism

Isn't it up to the Bishops to apply the canons with "akrivia" or "eikonomia"?
What do his brother bishops have to say about his actions? Have any condemned him?

Also, "Heretics" in the context of those canons, are those who wilfully left the Church to follow heresy.

JasonV · Jul 29, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
it wasn't a joint service. doing a prayer with the heterodox present is not the same as a joint service with them. as a bishop, in order for it to actually be a service, His Eminence would have been wearing his omophorion and epitrachelion. he wore neither, so it wasn't a service.

I don't remember reading those qualifiers in the canons. Could you provide your source for that statement?

ArmyMatt · Jul 29, 2019

JasonV said:
I don't remember reading those qualifiers in the canons. Could you provide your source for that statement?

something I learned in Liturgics, so I will have to wait til my Liturgics prof gets back.

but I will ask, have you ever seen a bishop conduct a service without wearing at least his omophorion and epitrachelion? because in the heiratikon it lists what must be worn by each rank of clergy when serving.

but even if it's a practice, it is the signal that this was not a joint service.

JasonV · Jul 29, 2019

So Fr. Matt, would you let one of your parishioners attend a Lutheran wedding? What about a Roman Catholic baptism? Just trying to gauge your level of concern when dealing with Ecumenism.

dzheremi · Jul 29, 2019

How is it ecumenism to attend things without praying with the people there? In the video we see some prayers in Greek in which the Armenian Apostolic and Catholic observers do not even participate (unless you want to count the Armenians' crossing themselves at the appropriate times as 'participation', but wouldn't that be on them, not on Met. Joseph? Or is Met. Joseph supposed to be in charge of what Armenians do or don't do?), which if anything validates everyone else's observations regarding what this isn't. Why do you insist on some other reading of the event to the point of challenging an EO priest on what his own Church is doing or not doing?

I know this is in St. Justin's already, but I don't think that justifies starting a thread in bad faith. I'm just as out of communion with the EO as you are (you are in one of those "true EO" groups, aren't you?), but you don't see me starting a thread here that amounts to "Look at this EO bishop; my goodness, he has non-EO people around him as he prays...what a heretic!" That is a beyond ridiculous proposition, and I would hope that anyone claiming Eastern Orthodoxy as you do would treat its clergy with more respect than you are currently doing by virtue of having started this thread in the first place and now attempting to play 'pin the ecumenist heresy' on another one of its clergy who has responded to you here.

Lord have mercy. I'm sorry you guys (actual EO) have to deal with these 'true/genuine' people.

ArmyMatt · Jul 29, 2019

JasonV said:
So Fr. Matt, would you let one of your parishioners attend a Lutheran wedding? What about a Roman Catholic baptism? Just trying to gauge your level of concern when dealing with Ecumenism.

that depends. if they just wanna check it out, then I would say no. if it's a family member then I would say yes, but no participation. standing there respectfully is not the same as participating.

and I hate ecumenism. it is, in my opinion, the most insidious heresy.

ArmyMatt · Jul 29, 2019

and I would also have to say that any ultra liberal UCC or Episcopal service which calls God anything other than Father is an automatic ban from attending.

JasonV · Jul 29, 2019

I know you tend to be a more conservative priest, and I'm glad for that. Patriarch Kirill of the MP seems to think it's totally ok, but of course I strongly disagree.

Metropolitan Kirill believes Orthodox Christians can pray before pan-Christian shrines in non-Orthodox churches - News » Metropolitan Kirill believes Orthodox Christians can pray before pan-Christian shrines in non-Orthodox churches » - OrthodoxEurope.org

All4Christ · Jul 29, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
that depends. if they wanna check it out, then I would say no. if it's a family member then I would say yes, but no participation. standing there respectfully is not the same as participating.

and I hate ecumenism. it is, in my opinion, the most insidious heresy.

Father said that we can attend a service like that out of love and / or for the sake of peace in family, etc. For example, when my nephew and niece were dedicated, it would have been an extreme personal injury to them if I did not attend.

I did not partake of communion or do anything along those lines. I was, however, respectful and thankful that my family cares about the raising of my niece and nephew in the Christian faith in the best way they understand it. After all, my family raising me in the Christian Faith was part of the process of my journey to where I am today.

I also personally committed (on my own, not through the service) to try to teach them and raise them to follow God and His teachings. After all, our Christian witness is borne out of love and compassion, not out of judgment of the persons involved.

JasonV · Jul 29, 2019

dzheremi said:
How is it ecumenism to attend things without praying with the people there? In the video we see some prayers in Greek in which the Armenian Apostolic and Catholic observers do not even participate (unless you want to count the Armenians' crossing themselves at the appropriate times as 'participation', but wouldn't that be on them, not on Met. Joseph? Or is Met. Joseph supposed to be in charge of what Armenians do or don't do?), which if anything validates everyone else's observations regarding what this isn't. Why do you insist on some other reading of the event to the point of challenging an EO priest on what his own Church is doing or not doing?

I know this is in St. Justin's already, but I don't think that justifies starting a thread in bad faith. I'm just as out of communion with the EO as you are (you are in one of those "true EO" groups, aren't you?), but you don't see me starting a thread here that amounts to "Look at this EO bishop; my goodness, he has non-EO people around him as he prays...what a heretic!" That is a beyond ridiculous proposition, and I would hope that anyone claiming Eastern Orthodoxy as you do would treat its clergy with more respect than you are currently doing by virtue of having started this thread in the first place and now attempting to play 'pin the ecumenist heresy' on another one of its clergy who has responded to you here.

Lord have mercy. I'm sorry you guys (actual EO) have to deal with these 'true/genuine' people.

Coming from someone who in the past 12 months has gone through two or three different religions and at least three churches, I'm sure you'll understand why I don't take your rebuke seriously.

JasonV · Jul 29, 2019

All4Christ said:
Father said that we can attend a service like that out of love and / or for the sake of peace in family, etc. For example, when my nephew and niece were dedicated, it would have been an extreme personal injury to them if I did not attend.

I did not partake of communion or do anything along those lines. I was, however, respectful and thankful that my family cares about the raising of my niece and nephew in the Christian faith in the best way they understand it. After all, my family raising me in the Christian Faith was part of the process of my journey to where I am today.

I also personally committed (on my own, not through the service) to try to teach them and raise them to follow God and His teachings. After all, our Christian witness is borne out of love and compassion, not out of judgment of the persons involved.

I hate to say this, but since when did anyone's feelings matter?

Met. Joseph doesn't seem to mind praying with heretics.

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