Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Contenders Edge said:

“Are those who justify sinful living in the name of the Law of Grace, in compliance with, or in violation of, that Law?”
You tell me which it is.
“Is the Law of Grace at fault because there are those who justify sinful living in its name?

Is the New Covenant at fault because it has revoked the Old?” (Hebrews 8:13)
Where would you place the blame? I know I would not lay the blame on the Law of Grace or the New Covenant despite your persistence in insinuating that I have done that.
How does God identify "His earthly people"?
"Which of the four characteristics in post 464 does one need to possess to be recognized as one of "His earthly people" by Him?”
Do you even know the difference between God’s earthly people, His heavenly people, and those who are both?

Click to expand...

Contenders Edge said: ↑
You identified the heavenly people of which we are in Christ, but by what characteristics are the earthly people identified?

Click to expand...

jgr said: ↑
That's the question.
By what characteristics does God identify His earthly people, that are different from the characteristics by which He identifies His heavenly people i.e. faith and obedience?

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Still waiting.

Click to expand...

Inquiring minds want to know.........my bro Paul explains John 3:12 fairly well.........

John 3:
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, ‘How are these things able to happen?’ 10Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Thou art the teacher of Israel — and these things thou dost not know! 11‘Verily, verily, I say to thee — What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive; 12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14‘And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

1Co 3:
1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
3
for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
==============================
John 3:12

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 12. - If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how will ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?
Our Lord here drops the plural form of address, and returns to the singular. He is about to refer to matters in which the testimony of disciples was not available. It has sometimes been said that the "earthly" and "heavenly" things refer to the wind parable and its interpretation. But, on the supposition that there is a parable or metaphor in ver. 8, which we have seen reason to doubt, there would be no perplexity about the reception of the earthly illustration; none could in that day have made a moment's question touching the invisibility and incomprehensibility of the motion of the wind. The birth from water has been supposed by others to be the (ἐπίγειον) "earthly" thing of which he had spoken, as contrasted with the heavenly thing, the birth anew from the Spirit. But this also is improbable, for of all the things of which Jesus spoke, that was the least likely to have been rejected by the Pharisaic party. The "earthly things" are the subject matter of the discourse as a whole, in apprehending which Nicodemus manifested such obtuseness. The change, renovation of human nature, the new beginning "from the Spirit" of each human life, was indeed operated on the ground of an earthly experience, and came fairly within the compass of common appreciation. Though produced by the Spirit, these things were enacted on earth. When Nicodemus asks the question "how?" he launches the inquiry into another region. There is wide difference between the question "what?" and the question "how?

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) Earthly things—i.e., things upon earth, having the sphere of their action upon earth. These are not necessarily restricted to the subjects of this interview. The context includes previous witness borne by Him, and there must have been much which is unrecorded. (Comp. John 2:23.) But the new birth is not excluded from “earthly things,” because it is the entrance to a life which, while it is spiritual, is still a life upon earth.

Heavenly things, in the same way, are things which have the sphere of their action in heaven, the full development of the spiritual life, of which the birth only is on earth; the divine counsels of redemption; the Messianic mysteries, of which this ruler of Israel does not understand even the initiation. Comp. the question in the Wisdom of Solomon, “What man is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of the Lord is? . . . And hardly do we guess aright at things that are upon earth, and with labour do we find the things that are before us: but the things that are in heaven who hath searched out?” (John 9:13; John 9:16).

The earthly things are the elements of spiritual knowledge, having their test in the moral sense and in their fitness to supply the spiritual wants of man. When these elements are learnt, the mind is then, and then only, fitted to receive heavenly things. The teaching can only proceed step by step from the known to the unknown; but if the will refuses or the intellect neglects to know the knowable, the man cuts himself off from the power to receive truth. The message from the spirit-world has come, and others read it; but he has not learnt the alphabet. (Comp. Note on John 16:12.)

jgr said:

Still waiting.

Click to expand...

jgr, I have to wonder about your ability to read and understand plain scripture.
The Lord said: I will give the command: To shake Israel among the nations, like in a sieve and not one pebble will be lost. Amos 9:9
This scripture and many others, makes it quite clear that the ancient Israel bloodline is not lost or dissipated. God knows who they all are. We do too, as God sent Jesus to save them, His mission was successful and we Christians are the result. Many Christians from other races will join them, but the majority will be actual descendants of Jacob.

You like to promote the truth of how it is just the faithful Christians that the Lord will bless. This is correct and Ezekiel 20:34-36 tells us that only the Christian Israelites will be allowed into the holy Land. Confirmed by Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 5:10

Contenders Edge said:

That only a remnant of the nation of Israel will be saved receive Christ as their Messiah when He returns will be the end result (Rom. 9:27) and it will be they to whom Christ fulfills all promises pertaining to them that were given to their forefathers.

Click to expand...

Based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew 25:1-13, and Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, nobody will be saved at His Second Coming.
They must be ready before He Comes.

Some Dispensationalists say "all", but you say only a "remnant", of Orthodox Jews will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.
The scriptures above reveal the error of both.

We should be preaching the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews, now.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel 9, prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
Why have we never seen this simple three-part Gospel message on Christian television?
Your Two Peoples of God doctrine is part of the problem.

The man in the video below was an Orthodox Jew who found the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures, and accepted Christ as his Messiah.

.

claninja said:

If the old covenant has been taken away, then so have the promises. The NT proves the old covenant was taken away (hebrwes 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).



There is no mention of a lot of specifics of the old covenant following or proceeding the verses that mention the old covenant being made obsolete and taken away. So I'm not sure how that is a valid argument.



We should avoid teaching things not mentioned by Jesus or the apostles. While the NT teaches that the old covenant has been made obsolete and taken away, it no where mentions land restoration.

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer

1 timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches another doctrine and disagrees with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing.



The blessings promised to Israel under the old covenant are tied to their acceptance of the new covenant in Christ? Where does the NT teach that?



Absolutely agree. I would add, it was only a shadow pointing to Christ and not the reality (hebrews 10:1).



Correct.



Absolutely agree, with the exception of Christ.



Neither the Hasmonean dynasty nor the events of 1948 fit with Ezekiel 37, so I'm not following you.



No NT passage teaches that Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled with Israel becoming a new nation in the future of the 1st century.

Ezekiel 37 was written while Israel was in exile, thus the immediate understanding should be return from Babylonian exile, for this the type under the old covenant shadow.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘O My people, I will open your graves and bring you up from them, and I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel also prophesies God would put in Spirit into those of Israel so that they would live and he would settle them in their own land.

Ezekiel 37:14 I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.’”

As Paul states, all the promises of God are yes in Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.

Thus, according the NT, it is through Christ that the Spirit was sent and poured out in Israel

John 15:26 But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me

Acts 2:4,16-17 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

It is through Christ that the dead are made alive
Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses

Where was Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and ascension? in the land of Israel, where they had settled following the Babylonian exile.

Where was the spirit poured out? in the land of Israel at Pentecost.



Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the 2 houses becoming one under one head, as being fulfilled in the 1st century with the inclusion of the Jews and gentiles in vessels of mercy.

Romans 9:23-26 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”





It only mentions one land restoration followed by a circumcision of their hearts.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Circumcision of the heart occurs at the receiving of the spirit. The spirit was poured on Pentecost, which was after Israel's return from Babylonian exile.

Romans 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

I've read Deuteronomy 30:1-6 multiple times now and do not see multiple land restorations followed leading up to circumcised hearts.



So then you agree that God is Spirit, and God now dwells with his temple and walks among us in spirit?

Click to expand...

“If the old covenant has been taken away, then so have the promises. The NT proves the old covenant was taken away (hebrwes 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).”


If the promises pertaining to Israel passed away with the Old Covenant then God is not faithful in keeping His promises as the scripture says He is (Heb. 10:23) and if His promises to Israel are no good, then neither are His promises to us.


“We should avoid teaching things not mentioned by Jesus or the apostles. While the NT teaches that the old covenant has been made obsolete and taken away, it no where mentions land restoration.”


You are insisting that the promise of “land restoration” is no longer in effect, but neither Jesus nor the Apostles made such a claim.


“There is no mention of a lot of specifics of the old covenant following or proceeding the verses that mention the old covenant being made obsolete and taken away. So I'm not sure how that is a valid argument.”


What makes it a valid argument is that among all the things the book of Hebrews says have been done away with upon the enactment of the New Covenant, the promise “land restoration” as it pertains to Israel was not among those things listed. The New Testament does not just say that the Old Covenant was done away with. It also goes on to explain what was made obsolete with the passing of the Old Covenant and the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

If the New Covenant does not declare something associated with the Old Covenant obsolete, then we cannot make that declaration either.


The blessings promised to Israel under the old covenant are tied to their acceptance of the new covenant in Christ? Where does the NT teach that?


God is faithful in keeping every promise He makes. (Heb. 10:23) That is why we cannot declare the promise of “land restoration” as it pertains to Israel obsolete. Therefore, whatever promises were not fulfilled under the Old Covenant are destined to see their fulfillment under the New Covenant.


“No NT passage teaches that Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled with Israel becoming a new nation in the future of the 1st century. Neither the Hasmonean dynasty nor the events of 1948 fit with Ezekiel 37, so I'm not following you.


Israel is a re-established nation. It is not a new nation. And the reason why the New Testament does not declare the 37th chapter of Ezekiel fulfilled is because it was not fulfilled in the 1st century. Its complete fulfillment is still to come. There was never a fulfillment date attached to it anyway. What has been fulfilled is that Israel is back in their land as a unified nation, which is consistent with the 1948 re-establishment of Israel. What we are waiting for is their spiritual restoration which Jesus will complete.


“Ezekiel also prophesies God would put in Spirit into those of Israel so that they would live and he would settle them in their own land.”


And what spirit was directing events that led to the re-establishment of Israel in 1948 if not the Spirit of God?


As Paul states, all the promises of God are yes in Christ.


There is no disputing that.


"Thus, according the NT, it is through Christ that the Spirit was sent and poured out in Israel.

Where was Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and ascension? in the land of Israel, where they had settled following the Babylonian exile. Where was the spirit poured out? in the land of Israel at Pentecost. Thus, according the NT, it is through Christ that the Spirit was sent and poured out in Israel.”


If you believe that the Spirit of God was poured out upon the people of Israel after their return from exile in Babylon, that would have meant the people had returned to their land in unbelief at first and later repented. The same applies to the 1948 re-establishment of the nation of Israel in their own land. Just because they largely may have returned in unbelief, that does not mean that they will not come to repentance at some point in the future.


“Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the 2 houses becoming one under one head, as being fulfilled in the 1st century with the inclusion of the Jews and gentiles in vessels of mercy.”


Hosea never called the Gentiles a second house. In the eleventh verse of the first chapter of Hosea, it is made very clear that the two houses are the divided nation of Israel yet which were to become one people and one nation once more and which has happened.

There is no doubt, however, that God does call on the Gentiles to come and worship Him as well in the cited passages which Paul does confirm.



It only mentions one land restoration followed by a circumcision of their hearts.



And yet you appear to be saying that the circumcision of the heart occurs after they are returned to their land:


Circumcision of the heart occurs at the receiving of the spirit. The spirit was poured on Pentecost, which was after Israel's return from Babylonian exile.


Ezekiel 37 in verses 1-12 seems to suggest that Israel would still be in unbelief for a time during their restorative process.


“I've read Deuteronomy 30:1-6 multiple times now and do not see multiple land restorations followed leading up to circumcised hearts.”



And yet it has happened twice as far as land restoration is concerned. If Deuteronomy 30:1-6 was speaking of a one-fulfillment instead of a possible on-going cycle, it would have made it clear that it was speaking of a one-time fulfillment.



“So then you agree that God is Spirit, and God now dwells with his temple and walks among us in spirit?”



And then He will come to dwell and reign upon the earth physically in a physical Temple located in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. The time will come when He will no longer dwell in a physical temple because He will serve as that temple. (Rev. 21:22)

BABerean2 said:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(See Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, for the fulfillment of the above.)


What promise of the New Covenant was not fulfilled with the following words of Christ at Calvary?

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What did Christ leave unfinished?

Those who place their faith in the New Covenant which was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, receive the gift of eternal life.
What more could any human being want, or expect?

.

Click to expand...

This is all pertaining to our salvation. That is not being disputed. What is being disputed is the promise of land restoration to Israel.

jgr said:

Still waiting.

Click to expand...

"Your call will be answered in the order it was received."

keras said:

jgr, I have to wonder about your ability to read and understand plain scripture.
The Lord said: I will give the command: To shake Israel among the nations, like in a sieve and not one pebble will be lost. Amos 9:9
This scripture and many others, makes it quite clear that the ancient Israel bloodline is not lost or dissipated. God knows who they all are. We do too, as God sent Jesus to save them, His mission was successful and we Christians are the result. Many Christians from other races will join them, but the majority will be actual descendants of Jacob.

You like to promote the truth of how it is just the faithful Christians that the Lord will bless. This is correct and Ezekiel 20:34-36 tells us that only the Christian Israelites will be allowed into the holy Land. Confirmed by Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 5:10

Click to expand...

keras, I continually marvel at your level of spiritual incomprehension.

Your inability or unwillingness to reply to a simple question is a classic example of someone who either does not understand, or does not believe, what he claims.

Here are Scripture's identifying characteristics:

1. Faith
2. Obedience

What is/are yours? An identifying characteristic(s) that, even in the absence of faith and obedience, will still bring its bearer God's recognition and salvation?

1. ?

One word per line. Add a line(s) if necessary.

Not your malinterpretation of Scripture.

Just one word per line.

Go for it.

claninja said:

Revelation states Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Paul reveals Jesus is reigning (must reign is present tense).
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Does a US citizen stating "Donald trump is no my president" make Donald trump no their president? No, and neither do unloyal subjects not make Christ king of the world as reigns while putting his enemies under his feet.



So you believe Paul was wrong?

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 16:25 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith



What? Why didn't the holy spirit inspire matthew to use kosmos instead of oikoumené then?



Right he only stated no one knows the day nor hour. As you correctly stated, he never said "year".



The temple was destroyed within 1 generation, as Christ prophesied. Thus the generation did not pass away until all those things occurred.

Suggesting there are 2,000 year old men walking around is speculative and myth.



Yes, to come unexpectedly.

But, The day of the Lord was not take overtake believers like a thief in the night.
1 thessalonians 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

Who was taken by surprise of the flood, noah and his family or those outside of the ark?

Matthew 24:36-38 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,b but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.



Incorrect, Peter did not believe Christ would come 1,000 years later, for he also stated the end was at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers



Speculative interpretations are enough? I disagree.



So you admit this is personal opinion and not scripturally taught then.



I agree. Good so we agree that there were in fact wars and rumors of wars leading up to the destruction of the temple and beyond.



Why would they no be mere shooting starts, lunar eclipses, or solar eclipses?

An examination of OT scripture shows that Jesus appears to be referencing from Isaiah 13

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Which is about the destruction of Babylon by the Medes

Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver
and do not delight in gold.



Per Josephus a sword shape star appeared over Jerusalem for a year

" So it was when a star resembling a sword, stood over the city[Jerusalem] and a comet which continued for a year"

As far as lunar and solar eclipses and falling stars, we'd have to look at any data reporting it in the 1st century.



I can't see into the heavens now, So I don't know how I could see the power of the heavens shake.



No they don't. (this data only include 5.9 and up magnitude).

In 1990 there were 1744
In 2000 there were 1501
In 2010 there were 2383
In 2017 there were 1566
In 2018 there were 1808

This does not show statistically significant increase in earthquake activity.

Click to expand...

“Revelation states Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Paul reveals Jesus is reigning (must reign is present tense).”


He presently reigns from Heaven. Revelation also states that He will eventually come to reign upon the earth.


“Does a US citizen stating "Donald trump is no my president" make Donald trump no their president? No, and neither do unloyal subjects not make Christ king of the world as reigns while putting his enemies under his feet.”


Donald Trump is presently a ruler on the earth with term limits. When Christ comes to reign, His Kingdom will be for eternity. Trump, due to Constitutional limitations, is forced to bear with disloyal citizens and various adversaries to a certain extent.

Christ, when He comes to reign, will eliminate all disloyal subjects. Daily, people rail against our President, mock and ridicule him, and spout all sorts of things against him that may or may not be true, and in turn, Trump must take on the task of refuting those things said against him and defending and justifying the decisions he makes.

But the day is coming when those people who have set themselves at enmity with Christ will be begging and pleading for their very lives and souls when He returns.


So you believe Paul was wrong?


Did not Paul himself believe that creation itself bore witness? And even if every nation knew of the foretellings concerning Christ, that does not mean that the fulfillment thereof was announced to all of them in the first century.


Why didn't the holy spirit inspire matthew to use kosmos instead of oikoumené then?


Did not the far east have inhabitants then? Did not Australia as well? What about the Americas?
If they did, why wouldn’t oikumene apply just as much to them as to the people within the jurisdiction of the Roman empire?


“Right he only stated no one knows the day nor hour. As you correctly stated, he never said "year".


And because days are attached to years, no one can ever know the year either. If no one can know the day nor hour, no one can know the year either.


“The temple was destroyed within 1 generation, as Christ prophesied. Thus the generation did not pass away until all those things occurred.

Suggesting there are 2,000 year old men walking around is speculative and myth.”


You must believe that God is of limited power and therefore is limited in His abilities to fulfill all that He has spoken if you refuse to believe that the Apostle John might still be alive today when the scripture has left open that possibility: “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” (Jn. 21:22-23)

I did not state for a fact that the Apostle John is still alive, I only stated the possibility and that possibility will retain its validity until Christ returns and He has not yet returned. All it would take to fulfill the words “this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled” would be one or even a handful of representatives of that generation to be retained until all has been fulfilled, even if they are kept hidden away from the rest of the world.

Not every player in the battle for souls on both sides is in plain sight but the day will come when they will be.


“Yes, to come unexpectedly. But, The day of the Lord was not take overtake believers like a thief in the night.”


But they still were not able to pinpoint the exact time and were well aware that He would come at a time that they did not think that He would.


“Who was taken by surprise of the flood, noah and his family or those outside of the ark?”


Noah did not know exactly when the flood was going to happen. He just knew that it was going to happen as soon as the ark was completed and as to how long it took him to build the ark, no one really knows, but that is for another thread.


“Incorrect, Peter did not believe Christ would come 1,000 years later, for he also stated the end was at hand.”


I never said that Peter believed Christ would come a thousand years later, I said that Peter believed that Christ could just as easily come a thousand years later as He could within Peter’s lifetime. Peter believed in the imminent return of our Lord. Do you understand what imminency is?


“Speculative interpretations are enough? I disagree.”


The scriptures I provided are more than speculative interpretation. They are examples as to fulfillment of prophecy can be hastened or delayed. That is why most prophecies do not have a date and time attached to them.


“So you admit this is personal opinion and not scripturally taught then.”


I was speaking in reference to the following:


“Had the Church continued to take the Gospel to all four corners of the earth and maintained its own members, all thing might have been fulfilled sooner and perhaps Christ might already be reigning on the earth today.”


Speculative as it is, if the scripture had not recorded examples of prophetic fulfillments being hastened or delayed, I would have no basis for it. Search out the scriptures that to which I have appealed and you will understand the basis for why I believe that it is possible for prophetic fulfillments to be either hastened or delayed.


“Why would they no be mere shooting starts, lunar eclipses, or solar eclipses?”


Because these are normal astronomical phenomena to which no one gives a thought and from which no one has anything to fear. If Jesus was referring to natural phenomena preceding His return, His Words would be meaningless.


“An examination of OT scripture shows that Jesus appears to be referencing from Isaiah 13…Which is about the destruction of Babylon by the Medes”


The judgment upon Babylon by the Medes had taken place long before Jesus had come to the earth. Why would Jesus foretell that which had already come to pass as that which will come to pass?


“Per Josephus a sword shape star appeared over Jerusalem for a year.”


Jesus said there would be more than one terrifying sign in the heavens.


“As far as lunar and solar eclipses and falling stars, we'd have to look at any data reporting it in the 1st century.”


Especially out of the ordinary phenomena, even by modern scientific standards.


“I can't see into the heavens now, So I don't know how I could see the power of the heavens shake.”


When it happens, there will be no doubt.


"No they don't. (this data only include 5.9 and up magnitude).

In 1990 there were 1744
In 2000 there were 1501
In 2010 there were 2383
In 2017 there were 1566
In 2018 there were 1808

This does not show statistically significant increase in earthquake activity."


You left a lot of years out from the data: A ten year gap between 1990 and 2000, another ten year gap between 2010, and a seven year gap between 2010 and 2017. But even with the years shown, there is still an overall increase, even if it is a fluctuative one. An increase is an increase.

Contenders Edge said:

This is all pertaining to our salvation. That is not being disputed. What is being disputed is the promise of land restoration to Israel.

Click to expand...

The land promise on this earth is found below.

In this passage the "son" reveals that He is the "heir" to the land, and that the kingdom will be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it will be given to another.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Are you trying to give the land, and the kingdom, to those who reject the "chief cornerstone"?

.

jgr said:

keras, I continually marvel at your level of spiritual incomprehension.

Your inability or unwillingness to reply to a simple question is a classic example of someone who either does not understand, or does not believe, what he claims.

Here are Scripture's identifying characteristics:

1. Faith
2. Obedience

What is/are yours? An identifying characteristic(s) that, even in the absence of faith and obedience, will still bring its bearer God's recognition and salvation?

1. ?

One word per line. Add a line(s) if necessary.

Not your malinterpretation of Scripture.

Just one word per line.

Go for it.

Click to expand...

How would you characterize Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph? Were they not faithful and obedient to God overall? Is it not because of their devotion to and trust in God that God created a nation out of them to set apart for Himself as a representative people to the rest of the world? Is it not due to promises made to them that the Israelites have been a people preserved to this day? In order to faithfully keep His promises, God has had to bear with periods of faithlessness and disobedience on their part. He has not allowed that to go altogether unpunished as scripture and history make clear, yet He has promised to keep them preserved forever. (Jer. 31:35-37-33:20-26, Mal.3:6, Rom. 9:27 and chapter 11)

Eventually all ungodliness will be purged out from amongst the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but sadly, not all of the Jews will survive that purge. Those that do will embrace Jesus as their Messiah and will enter into the Kingdom He will establish upon the earth.

BABerean2 said:

The land promise on this earth is found below.

In this passage the "son" reveals that He is the "heir" to the land, and that the kingdom will be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it will be given to another.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Are you trying to give the land, and the kingdom, to those who reject the "chief cornerstone"?

.

Click to expand...

Are you trying to say that the Jewish people will never repent and eventually receive Christ?
Are trying to say that God does not keep all of His promises?

Contenders Edge said:

How would you characterize Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph? Were they not faithful and obedient to God overall? Is it not because of their devotion to and trust in God that God created a nation out of them to set apart for Himself as a representative people to the rest of the world? Is it not due to promises made to them that the Israelites have been a people preserved to this day? In order to faithfully keep His promises, God has had to bear with periods of faithlessness and disobedience on their part. He has not allowed that to go altogether unpunished as scripture and history make clear, yet He has promised to keep them preserved forever. (Jer. 31:35-37-33:20-26, Mal.3:6, Rom. 9:27 and chapter 11)

Eventually all ungodliness will be purged out from amongst the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but sadly, not all of the Jews will survive that purge. Those that do will embrace Jesus as their Messiah and will enter into the Kingdom He will establish upon the earth.

Click to expand...

Is your one-word identifying characteristic "bloodline"?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Inquiring minds want to know.........my bro Paul explains John 3:12 fairly well.........

John 3:
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, ‘How are these things able to happen?’ 10Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Thou art the teacher of Israel — and these things thou dost not know! 11‘Verily, verily, I say to thee — What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive; 12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14‘And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

1Co 3:
1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
3
for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
==============================
John 3:12

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 12. - If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how will ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?
Our Lord here drops the plural form of address, and returns to the singular. He is about to refer to matters in which the testimony of disciples was not available. It has sometimes been said that the "earthly" and "heavenly" things refer to the wind parable and its interpretation. But, on the supposition that there is a parable or metaphor in ver. 8, which we have seen reason to doubt, there would be no perplexity about the reception of the earthly illustration; none could in that day have made a moment's question touching the invisibility and incomprehensibility of the motion of the wind. The birth from water has been supposed by others to be the (ἐπίγειον) "earthly" thing of which he had spoken, as contrasted with the heavenly thing, the birth anew from the Spirit. But this also is improbable, for of all the things of which Jesus spoke, that was the least likely to have been rejected by the Pharisaic party. The "earthly things" are the subject matter of the discourse as a whole, in apprehending which Nicodemus manifested such obtuseness. The change, renovation of human nature, the new beginning "from the Spirit" of each human life, was indeed operated on the ground of an earthly experience, and came fairly within the compass of common appreciation. Though produced by the Spirit, these things were enacted on earth. When Nicodemus asks the question "how?" he launches the inquiry into another region. There is wide difference between the question "what?" and the question "how?

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) Earthly things—i.e., things upon earth, having the sphere of their action upon earth. These are not necessarily restricted to the subjects of this interview. The context includes previous witness borne by Him, and there must have been much which is unrecorded. (Comp. John 2:23.) But the new birth is not excluded from “earthly things,” because it is the entrance to a life which, while it is spiritual, is still a life upon earth.

Heavenly things, in the same way, are things which have the sphere of their action in heaven, the full development of the spiritual life, of which the birth only is on earth; the divine counsels of redemption; the Messianic mysteries, of which this ruler of Israel does not understand even the initiation. Comp. the question in the Wisdom of Solomon, “What man is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of the Lord is? . . . And hardly do we guess aright at things that are upon earth, and with labour do we find the things that are before us: but the things that are in heaven who hath searched out?” (John 9:13; John 9:16).

The earthly things are the elements of spiritual knowledge, having their test in the moral sense and in their fitness to supply the spiritual wants of man. When these elements are learnt, the mind is then, and then only, fitted to receive heavenly things. The teaching can only proceed step by step from the known to the unknown; but if the will refuses or the intellect neglects to know the knowable, the man cuts himself off from the power to receive truth. The message from the spirit-world has come, and others read it; but he has not learnt the alphabet. (Comp. Note on John 16:12.)

Click to expand...

Informative as this may be, may I ask what this has to do with the topic of this particular thread?

jgr said:

Is your one-word identifying characteristic "bloodline"?

Click to expand...

Did God produce or not produce a nation and a people to represent Him from a bloodline? Was it or was it not the basis for choosing that lineage founded upon the faith and devotion of those from whom that lineage came?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Indeed. Including at least 2 holocausts .....................

1 during the Jewish Wars, including 70ad and Masada:
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
Including The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world.....................
Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.

=======================================
And the one in WW2....................

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

Click to expand...

“Revelation 19:17 And I saw one Messenger standing in the sun, and He cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper of the Great God. 18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings.....”



Again, this is another monumental error that even your fellow Preterists have not yet resorted to. Revelation 19 pertains to the second coming of Christ. He does not destroy Jerusalem or the Jewish people. He destroys the armies of the world coming against Him and throws the Anti-Christ and his false prophet into the lake fire to be tormented forever.

Granted the Jewish people have faced much hardship and have subjected to chastening due to their unbelief, but they have not been destroyed nor will they ever be.

Contenders Edge said:

Again, this is another monumental error that even your fellow Preterists have not yet resorted to. Revelation 19 pertains to the second coming of Christ. He does not destroy Jerusalem or the Jewish people. Granted the Jewish people have faced much hardship and have subjected to chastening due to their unbelief, but they have not been destroyed nor will they ever be.

Click to expand...

I never implied they were or will be completely destroyed.
There were many Jews in 70ad that were spared death, either by captivity or fleeing to safe places during the Roman onslaught against the Jewish Rebels in the 1st century........

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death; And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine; And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

The 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse in Luke was fulfilled. Revelation 13:10 is the same event!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===========================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament,..........

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]
================
Deuteronomy 28:
67
In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
..........Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.

Click to expand...

68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===============================
Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

1. 
   Yes
   3 vote(s)
   25.0%
2. No
   7 vote(s)
   58.3%
3. Maybe
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
   1 vote(s)
   8.3%
5. Does it matter?
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. Other
   1 vote(s)
   8.3%

Contenders Edge said:

Did God produce or not produce a nation and a people to represent Him from a bloodline? Was it or was it not the basis for choosing that lineage founded upon the faith and devotion of those from whom that lineage came?

Click to expand...

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

That describes the genetic composition of Israel from its very beginning. God extended His Covenant equally and impartially, to both those of Abraham's bloodline, and those not of Abraham's bloodline; i.e. without bloodline distinction.

So bloodline had no original covenant significance in God's eyes. Do you think He changed His mind later? If so, when and where?

jgr said:

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

That describes the genetic composition of Israel from its very beginning. God extended His Covenant equally and impartially, to both those of Abraham's bloodline, and those not of Abraham's bloodline; i.e. without bloodline distinction.

So bloodline had no original covenant significance in God's eyes. Do you think He changed His mind later? If so, when and where?

Click to expand...

But to which bloodline were the promises extended? Through which bloodline came the Messiah by whom all things will be fulfilled?

LittleLambofJesus said:

I never implied they were or will be completely destroyed.
There were many Jews in 70ad that were spared death, either by captivity or fleeing to safe places during the Roman onslaught against the Jewish Rebels in the 1st century........

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death; And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine; And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

The 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse in Luke was fulfilled. Revelation 13:10 is the same event!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===========================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament,..........

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]
================
Deuteronomy 28:
67
In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.

68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===============================
Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

1. 
   Yes
   3 vote(s)
   25.0%
2. No
   7 vote(s)
   58.3%
3. Maybe
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
   1 vote(s)
   8.3%
5. Does it matter?
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. Other
   1 vote(s)
   8.3%

Click to expand...

Revelation 13 is not about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. No one demanded everyone to wear a certain mark on their right hand or forehead in that day. No ruler and his false prophet performed lying signs and wonders to deceive people in that day. There was no ruler in that day who survived a wound that would have killed anyone else.

The emperors of Rome may have prevailed against many, but they did not prevail against all nor did they take over the entire earth like the coming Anti-Christ and his empire will.

It is good to know that you do not believe that all of Israel will be destroyed.

Contenders Edge said:

But to which bloodline were the promises extended?

Click to expand...

To all bloodlines (Genesis 17:12).

Contenders Edge said:

Through which bloodline came the Messiah by whom all things will be fulfilled?

Click to expand...

Does that bloodline confer automatic salvation upon anyone who possesses it?