What Will It Take To Finally Admit Something Is Wrong With Our Understanding of the Gospel?
- Thread starter Gideons300
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The problem needing solving is that people cling to serving the world in order to survive, but it's a zero sum game. You gain at the expense of others. God's solution is to follow Him, so seeking the Kingdom of God leads to your needs being added to you, without depriving others!
The difficulty is in convincing people to stop being selfish, to come out of Egypt. God said that when Israel saw the great works He performed through Moses, they would believe He was behind Moses, backing him up.
Christ called it picking up the cross. Going out on a limb, taking a risk that God would save, when Christ performed miracles.
Some people think that we take a risk spending so much time in Christian living, when we could use it to hoard and protect life saving resources. But when they see us having things added to us, it stokes their interest. It happened to me. I was curious how clean living Christians I met were able to be blessed, without cheating and backbiting.
This is why I ask what gathering effect your lives have had.
Joshua 2
10“For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11“When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.
.........
John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
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You are honest. Thank you.
You have to learn to love God more than the world. Unfortunately we need time to learn this the hard way.
Truth. Exhortation is always towards "going on to perfection" (maturity), but most of us do have to learn the hard way. I love Psalm 107 for this reason, it shows the weakness and fallenness of men but more so the steadfast love of the LORD. THAT'S who He IS! He loves to hear that cry for help and He delivers!
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aiki
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I'm not sure how you're thinking this passage supports what you wrote:
"With respect to living as a believer, Christ said all our acts either have a gathering effect or scattering."
I think you're saying more than Jesus did in the above passage; you're making more of his words than perhaps you should. Was Christ speaking of how to live as a believer when he said what he did to the Pharisees? No. He was warning the Pharisees - though, they did not understand his warning, not recognizing him as the Messiah. The latter half of verse 30 expands on the first half. In what way are those who are against Christ against him? They "scatter" what Christ would gather. What was Christ gathering? The lost into His kingdom. The Pharisees were doing the opposite, scattering the lost, keeping them from the narrow gate to God's kingdom by declaring it demonic in origin.
So, how do you parlay this into what you wrote in the quotation above? Christ was speaking to the Pharisees, not to born-again believers. Jesus didn't say "all your acts have either a gathering or scattering effect," nor does he say they all must have such an effect.
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fhansen
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Okay, I'm sure that's all true. In any case we love God because He first loved us; it's His demonstrations of love and mercy and compassion, in spite of our sin, that attract us and melts our stony hearts. And we're then to follow Him in that love, which likewise attracts others. Just a general thought.
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Baptism enables believers to access spiritual food and water from heaven, exposure to the Way. Basically, God creates a crisis and then saves. This convinces people that God is with those in whom God's great works are manifested. In this way, God teaches believers two things:
1.He desires believers to gather
2.The lost are convinced to stop being selfish, come out of Egypt, and follow God, by becoming gatherers.
Of course we know that the demonstration does not always convince, because some people let selfishness and fear defeat their initial courage.
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
So the command is for believers to gather. Non believers are warned to choose sides : for God or for mammon, be selfless or be selfish, gather or scatter, by picking up or avoiding the cross.
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The only thing that attracts is seeing God's great works.
Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’” 2The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4But the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— 5“that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”
Joshua 2
10“For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11“When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.
John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Not that it is guaranteed to convince, because 1 Corinthians 10:5 says not all benefited and their bones littered the plains of the wilderness.
Psalm 78:11
They forgot what He had done, the wonders He had shown them.
Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.
Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.
The Gospel is not going to heaven. It is being fulfilled, completing the purpose for which God created humans, to bless creation.
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aiki
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??? Well, perhaps you're of a Roman Catholic bent, but as a Baptist, I don't subscribe to the idea that baptism is salvific. It is important as a symbol of one's new life in Christ, of one's spiritual union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection, and as an act of obedience to the command of God that connects faith to works, but baptism, as far as I'm aware, does not "enable believers to access spiritual food and water from heaven."
Often, yes, but not always. Crisis is not the only way God brings people to repentance and faith. Paul the apostle wrote that the goodness of God leads people to repentance. (Romans 2:4)
It may, yes. God works in other ways, though, to communicate His presence to people. Some have had dreams, others the direct, personal evangelism of a Christian believer, and others still have seen the clear stamp of God upon Creation.
Well, this business of gathering and being gatherers is not a particularly prominent idea in Scripture - certainly not enough for you to form this doctrine centered on gathering, as you have.
"Initial courage"? The Bible says people refuse to come the Christ because they are wicked and love the dark and refuse to have their wicked deeds reproved. (John 3:19-20) The Bible says people resist the Gospel because they are caught in the grip of the World, their own flesh, and the devil and are blinded and deafened to God's saving truth. (Ephesians 2:1-3) Courage has nothing do with whether or not a person trusts in Christ as their Saviour, as far as I can see.
But nothing you have put forward bears this idea out.
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Again, it's like walking into the middle of a conversation where you don't know what has been said before.
How do we find out what the framework of the discussion is? By looking for repetition. Since the topic is important, many descriptions are devoted to its clarification. We just have to find out how the repetitions appear in different places.
Your argument is with Scripture, not me. In the following passage we see Israel is inducted into an edification program, post baptism:
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Christ is metonymy for “crucifixion and resurrection”, which is what happened unilaterally when God created food shortages and then saved. Joshua learns and initiates his own crucifixion, laying down his life, by entering the Promised Land, and God saves by giving him victory. In the process Rahab is saved. God unilaterally makes a man blind from birth so that His great works are displayed in healing him. Jesus learns obedience and creates crisis, lays down His life confronting the authorities, and God saves. In the process Nicodemus is saved.
Baptism is initiated on belief. Only from John’s ministry forward is external baptism made a manifestation of the internal process. Abraham was baptised when he obeyed God in leaving his father’s house. God unilaterally creates problems for Abraham, and then saves. Abraham realises that God wants to save people and that resurrection, God's great work in saving, is important to convince people to follow God, which is what saves. He obeys God’s command to kill Isaac, believing God will return his son back to him.
God’s kindness in patiently waiting for His teaching to sink in. Abraham lied and hid when faced with danger. God was patient.
Moses asked for empowerment. Christ commanded us to pick up our crosses every day.
These are equivalents:
Israel was brave in coming out of Egypt to follow God. She lost heart when dangers arose.
The disciples were brave in giving up everything (all links to depending on mammon for life) to follow Christ. Judas lost his initial faith when he saw difficulties ahead.
See above.
How do we find out what the framework of the discussion is? By looking for repetition. Since the topic is important, many descriptions are devoted to its clarification. We just have to find out how the repetitions appear in different places.
Your argument is with Scripture, not me. In the following passage we see Israel is inducted into an edification program, post baptism:
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Christ is metonymy for “crucifixion and resurrection”, which is what happened unilaterally when God created food shortages and then saved. Joshua learns and initiates his own crucifixion, laying down his life, by entering the Promised Land, and God saves by giving him victory. In the process Rahab is saved. God unilaterally makes a man blind from birth so that His great works are displayed in healing him. Jesus learns obedience and creates crisis, lays down His life confronting the authorities, and God saves. In the process Nicodemus is saved.
Baptism is initiated on belief. Only from John’s ministry forward is external baptism made a manifestation of the internal process. Abraham was baptised when he obeyed God in leaving his father’s house. God unilaterally creates problems for Abraham, and then saves. Abraham realises that God wants to save people and that resurrection, God's great work in saving, is important to convince people to follow God, which is what saves. He obeys God’s command to kill Isaac, believing God will return his son back to him.
God’s kindness in patiently waiting for His teaching to sink in. Abraham lied and hid when faced with danger. God was patient.
Moses asked for empowerment. Christ commanded us to pick up our crosses every day.
These are equivalents:
- For God/Against God
- Selfless living/Selfish living
- Pick up cross/run away from cross
- Gather/Scatter
Israel was brave in coming out of Egypt to follow God. She lost heart when dangers arose.
The disciples were brave in giving up everything (all links to depending on mammon for life) to follow Christ. Judas lost his initial faith when he saw difficulties ahead.
See above.
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I am going to step in here and say something many may not like.
As I have watched this thread become a tit for tat match with each side explaining why their view is the right one, it has become the perfect object lesson that my OP put forth.
We are blind to our lack and the church is now 500+ schisms and sects each one rallying around their truth... you know.. the REAL truth. LOL. But we do not see what should be obvious to us, but is not.... yet. The world simply walks by us, amazed that we are so oblivious to our lack. Do you know when God said the world will know that He is THE God?
When He shall be sanctified IN US before their very eyes.
We think we are defending truth with our reasonings based upon things we know with our heads from the Word, but truth needs to be displayed to be desired, not defended.
I mean no disrespect to any here. But again, I return to the question asked at the beginning.
What will it take for His people to wake up to our stale, joyless and lifeless state, where we possess just enough truth to quiet our guilt, but not enough to let the truth actually possess us?
There is a vast difference between having our prison cells flung open, and actually leaving our cells behind, walking in real observable freedom.
May God bless you all.
Gids
As I have watched this thread become a tit for tat match with each side explaining why their view is the right one, it has become the perfect object lesson that my OP put forth.
We are blind to our lack and the church is now 500+ schisms and sects each one rallying around their truth... you know.. the REAL truth. LOL. But we do not see what should be obvious to us, but is not.... yet. The world simply walks by us, amazed that we are so oblivious to our lack. Do you know when God said the world will know that He is THE God?
When He shall be sanctified IN US before their very eyes.
We think we are defending truth with our reasonings based upon things we know with our heads from the Word, but truth needs to be displayed to be desired, not defended.
I mean no disrespect to any here. But again, I return to the question asked at the beginning.
What will it take for His people to wake up to our stale, joyless and lifeless state, where we possess just enough truth to quiet our guilt, but not enough to let the truth actually possess us?
There is a vast difference between having our prison cells flung open, and actually leaving our cells behind, walking in real observable freedom.
May God bless you all.
Gids
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And your OP just added a 501st.
If "we" means "we," do something about it.
If "we" means "you," say so.
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At this point, it’s time that you start using scripture. Mostly, you just post your thoughts and observations (to which we have no idea what research you’ve done, or what experience you have to make the claims).
So maybe it’s time to crack open that Bible.
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What I find curious is that no one is refuting what is being plainly stated in this post. Instead, there are simply different tactics used to try to avoid answering at any cost.
Look, I am part of the church, and at the head of the line as to needing grace to overcome so that I might walk pleasing to God. I am not accusing, nor judging, but rather simply stating truths that should be apparent to all.
The problem is, we are asleep, and we need to wake up to see our condition. God wants us to be joy-filled overcomers, loving Him and loving others with the same love Christ loves us. Yes, we are forgiven, and started correctly on our journey. But we missed a key truth, as have the vast majority of believers since the book of Acts.
We have missed putting off our old nature by faith alone, and instead clothing ourselves with brand new natures that not only want to obey Him, but CAN. That has left us trying to 'improve' our old nature which is not only impossible, it leads us down a path of partial contentment, yet without Godliness.
When I say 'we', I mean WE. Do you think I am no longer in need because I have been awakened? Ha! Everything I share, I share because it is truth, and truth sets free.... for me as well as for others.
When I had my miraculous visitation 12 years ago, He asked me to share faithfully what He had opened my eyes to. I have tried to do so to the best of my ability.
And what is that message? In a nutshell...
"Know ye not that you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God?"
"Now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light."
Paul prayed for the Ephesians that their "eyes of their understanding might be enlightened to the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." May God grant US the same thing.
We have tried to grow from old nature to new nature, and in doing so, do not see the frustration and confusion this has brought to our lives. We have tried to put new wine into old wineskins. We have tried to grow good fruit from bad trees. It simply does not work. And the solution? We must lay the axe to the root of our tree!
Praise God, we are the generation chosen to again be awakened and see the truth that sets us free indeed. We as His bride have a wedding to be prepared for, and we are not going to look very 'weddingly', lol, as we hang on by our fingernails, with the world, the flesh and the devil nipping constantly at our heels.
When we finally are worn out by our failings, by our silent prayer closets, by our being healed only slightly, saying ' peace, peace', when that is the very thing we need, we are finally ready to put off our old wineskin and stop trying to patch it up.
God has made us new creatures.... children who CAN obey! But here is the secret we have missed. Possessing them is not enough. We have to put them on by a determined act of faith, simply because we know that is the only way we will ever get control over our self nature.
It is time we believed our God.
Live, bones, live.
blessings,
Gideon
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I think we are prone to being like the sluggard here:
"The sluggard buries his hand in the dish and will not even bring it back to his mouth!"--Proverbs 19:24
The armor is provided free of charge but is actually designed for USE. By US. To be PUT ON.
Just as you have been saying
.
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