Having faith is enough or not?

RDKirk

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When James spoke of "dead faith," he was being somewhat rhetorically sarcastic in his response to the gnostic concept--existing even then--that faith was a purely spiritual matter that did not and should not have a physical manifestation.

What he meant was, "You have no faith, period." What the gnostics were calling "faith" was simply nothing at all but the philosophical concept they had woven out of their own navel lint.

What James was calling faith was a real force that compelled a Christian to emulate Christ. How obviously that compulsion is manifest to all other people is variable--it might not be obvious at all. In one man, faith's compulsion to emulate Christ might be manifest as the abandonment of a secret inappropriate contentography addiction. Who else would know?

But a person who does not feel that real compulsion does not have what James is talking about.
 
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Guojing

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I'm seeing a lot of: "by grace through faith" to be saved is enough.

Although it's true -- it may not be how you're taught it. It's no surprise this is one of the most popular and repeated mantra's of the Bible: it's an easy ticket to heaven.

First let's interpret this verse in context. The author is writing to those who boast about their salvation, by thinking they are saved by their own doing.

The author is simply pointing out the foundation for salvation. In layman's terms, "your good deeds cannot save you".
So if good deeds can't save you, then what can?

Does it end at, "by grace through faith"?

Let's look at what Jesus said.

"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 16:24

Wait...but preacher said all I needed was to have faith?

Jesus points out 3 important things: deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.

What's denying yourself? To deny your flesh, all worldly pleasures, accept that you are capable of nothing on your own, and most importantly before anything in your life, including eating, sleeping, breathing...God comes first.

Taking up your cross? Be ready to die for your faith, crucify your old flesh, are you ready to hate your mother, father, brother, sister? Are you willing to give up everything you have?

Follow him? Be like him -- obey the Fathers will, follow him how a sheep follows it's Shepard, put your trust in his ability to lead you to good pastures, don't doubt, be baptized.

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

But preacher said all I need is faith?

Well Jesus says, you need to be born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus's earthly ministry was only to the Jews, and he was preaching under the Law. All the Jews were subjected to the Law of Moses.

But after the Jews rejected him again, about a year after he was crucified, the ascended Christ gave Paul a new message to share with the Gentiles, Galatians 1:11-12. The Law of Moses was never given to us Gentiles in the first place.
 
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fhansen

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Faith is the means to being saved, not the end-all of it. Because faith establishes relationship with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5), but 'with whom all things are possible' (Matt 19:26). To the extent that we abide in Him and He in us, we grow in obedience born of love of Himself and neighbor. And that abiding is a daily choice.
 
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inquiring mind

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I'm seeing a lot of: "by grace through faith" to be saved is enough.
John tells us the single requirement for eternal life is faith. And, I think James is essentially saying... 'who has true faith in the Lord and labors not (looking to Him for direction, following His commandments, helping others, resisting sin, repenting when we fail) in response to the movement of the Holy Spirit upon them?' I don’t see a contradiction.

Well Jesus says, you need to be born of water and the Spirit.
Jesus was likely saying that with true faith comes a new spirit of good works, and was probably referring to Ezk 36:25-27, cleansing us and giving us a new heart to follow His commandments. Not a contradiction either.
 
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aiki

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I'm seeing a lot of: "by grace through faith" to be saved is enough.

Although it's true -- it may not be how you're taught it. It's no surprise this is one of the most popular and repeated mantra's of the Bible: it's an easy ticket to heaven.

First let's interpret this verse in context. The author is writing to those who boast about their salvation, by thinking they are saved by their own doing.

The author is simply pointing out the foundation for salvation. In layman's terms, "your good deeds cannot save you".
So if good deeds can't save you, then what can?

Does it end at, "by grace through faith"?

Let's look at what Jesus said.

You could do this - or you could simply look at the next verse:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

A person is not saved by their works but they are saved for (or, unto) good works. In other words, the natural by-product of salvation is a life that desires and pursues righteousness.

Let's look at what Jesus said.

"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 16:24

Wait...but preacher said all I needed was to have faith?

Where in what Jesus says here is Paul's teaching in Ephesians 2:8-9 refuted or denied? No where. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that good works and faith are at odds with each other. The problem is that some on CF pushing a works-salvation doctrine get the order reversed and think that one must do before and in order to become. But Paul has it exactly right: works are the result of salvation never the means of salvation. And nothing Jesus says in Matthew 16:24 denies this fact. Jesus is speaking to the life one must lead after one has trusted in Christ and decided to follow him, that is, after a person has been saved.

Taking up your cross? Be ready to die for your faith, crucify your old flesh, are you ready to hate your mother, father, brother, sister? Are you willing to give up everything you have?

Just to clarify: No one can self-crucify. It's impossible physically and it is just as impossible spiritually. This is why Paul takes great pains to explain that a saved person has been crucified with Christ by God, not by dint of their own efforts. God has crucified the believer and it remains for the believer to know it, believe it, and live in the light of this truth. (See Romans 6:1-18)

No one is willing to live the life of the Cross without God first moving them into a love-relationship with Himself - which is the sole ground out of which the believers self-sacrificing obedience is to arise. (See Matthew 22:36-38) Fear is a self-centered basis for obedience, which is why God won't accept such obedience. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
 
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prodromos

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I suspect many people confuse belief with faith.

I may believe the ladder will hold my weight, but faith is climbing the ladder.
If there is no action corresponding to our belief, we don't have faith.
 
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Rescued One

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Colossians 1 NIV
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


Jesus gave His life for my sins. He paid for them and set me free from Satan's power over me. Those who love Him are concerned with living for Him! He saved me and is saving me!
 
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Blade

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Yes. Not sure how one gets "if anyone wants to follow me" one says ""Whoever wants to be my disciple " So you believe ALL those people there only the 12 believed? Hmm yet He wasnt talking to ONE Christian. He had not died yet and rose PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!

No clue what "preacher" your talking about. I can't speak for anyone else. I believe what Jesus said John 3 16-17. As the word says "were saved".

This is not based on what and how some man believes. The word makes it clear.. we don't go around telling others what that WORD OF GOD is really saying. Its not us that save anyone. Yeah.. AWESOME huh.. the sweet sweet Holy Spirit of God does it. Then.. as Jesus said.. HE will lead and guide you into all truth. See JESUS is real. Theres no "OH NO! If you don't believe like I do..your lost". What HE starts HE finishes. The truth always leads to Jesus.
 
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def

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You could do this - or you could simply look at the next verse:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

A person is not saved by their works but they are saved for (or, unto) good works. In other words, the natural by-product of salvation is a life that desires and pursues righteousness.

'For' in verse 10 is not a by-product, but negates verse 9; telling us it is not our works, but God's works. The breakdown:

The theme: for by grace you have been saved through faith.

1) Not of yourselves, then who? The gift of God, i.e. the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2) 'Lest anyone should boast' dismisses personal works. Whose works? Good works from God.

From faith to faith (Romans 1:17). Faith to believe the gospel in 1, and faith in Christ to do the good works in 2.
 
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aiki

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'For' in verse 10 is not a by-product

Is not a by-product of what, exactly? Are you saying works do not arise from the saving work of God in our lives? I sure hope not.

The theme: for by grace you have been saved through faith.

1) Not of yourselves, then who? The gift of God, i.e. the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2) 'Lest anyone should boast' dismisses personal works. Whose works? Good works from God.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Here is my "breakdown" of the passage:

Verse 8 indicates that a born-again believer has been saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and that the believer's salvation is a gift of God, not the product of the believer's effort.

Verse 9 continues the thought of verse 8, emphasizing that no one can obtain the gift of salvation by good works, which dissolves any cause for boasting on the part of the person who is saved.

Verse 10 explains that the one who is saved is so as a consequence of God's work, accomplished through Jesus, for the purpose of producing in the saved person a life of good works.

I don't see that the passage above denies or refutes my contention that good works are the by-product of being saved. This is the very thing verse 10 communicates.
 
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A_Thinker

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When James spoke of "dead faith," he was being somewhat rhetorically sarcastic in his response to the gnostic concept--existing even then--that faith was a purely spiritual matter that did not and should not have a physical manifestation.

What he meant was, "You have no faith, period." What the gnostics were calling "faith" was simply nothing at all but the philosophical concept they had woven out of their own navel lint.

What James was calling faith was a real force that compelled a Christian to emulate Christ. How obviously that compulsion is manifest to all other people is variable--it might not be obvious at all. In one man, faith's compulsion to emulate Christ might be manifest as the abandonment of a secret inappropriate contentography addiction. Who else would know?

But a person who does not feel that real compulsion does not have what James is talking about.
True faith will shape one's actions.

We live according to how we truly believe ...
 
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BrotherJJ

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Having faith is enough or not?

KJV Dictionary Definition: REMISSION
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.

^^^Remission = Pardon^^^

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE: It's Belief/ faith in Christ's SHED BLOOD that provides the Pardon/Remission for sins)

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES/trusts in Christ shed blood payment. Will receive Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(NOTE: It's FAITH placed in Christ's propitiation/reconciling/atoning sacrifice that provides the Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Gentiles are called to FAITH, which leads to obedience)

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the "Gentiles might come to the obedience "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: It's thru FAITH that gentiles are brought to obedience/repentance/godly living)

Its by the grace (unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor) of God & thru the faith "OF" Christ & our faith/trust placed in His faithful/obedient/sinless finished work.

1 Jn2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The judge is also our advocate/attorney: Verdict -

NOT GUILTY/ALL SINS PARDONED. Time to raise our hands & shout a big THANK YOU Jesus!
 
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zoidar

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I think it's about relationship, to love and be a servant of Jesus. Without faith, that is naturally not possible. I think some people fall into all I need is to trust in, and others are trusting in their deeds. We need to both trust in his forgiveness and be servants. But love comes first, we can't serve without love. Love comes from the Holy Spirit, by knowing Christ at a personal level. Love springs from knowing how much Jesus loves us, that he died for us all because he loves us so much. When you know that in your heart, there will be love, and then you can fully serve.
 
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BrotherJJ

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Having faith is enough or not?

KJV Dictionary Definition: REMISSION
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.

^^^Remission = Pardon^^^

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(NOTE: Without Christ's shed blood there is NO Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NOTE: It's Belief/ faith in Christ's SHED BLOOD that provides the Pardon/Remission for sins)

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES/trusts in Christ shed blood payment. Will receive Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(NOTE: It's FAITH placed in Christ's propitiation/reconciling/atoning sacrifice that provides the Pardon/Remission for sins.)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Gentiles are called to FAITH, which leads to obedience)

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the "Gentiles might come to the obedience "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: It's thru FAITH that gentiles are brought to obedience/repentance/godly living)

Its by the grace (unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor) of God & thru the faith "OF" Christ & our faith/trust placed in His faithful/obedient/sinless finished work.

1 Jn2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The judge is also our advocate/attorney: Verdict -

NOT GUILTY/ALL SINS PARDONED. Time to raise our hands & shout a big THANK YOU Jesus!

Hebrews 12: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(NOTE: Christ is the author/begining & finisher/end of all faith)

It's Christ's faithful work & our faith placed in it

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "faith of Christ" and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(NOTE: It's the Faith "OF" Christ and thru the righteousness of Christ's faith. Christ becomes the Lord our righteousness (Jer 23:6 & 33:16). And God justifies us "Declares us Righteous in His sight)

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(NOTE: We live by the faith "OF" the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(NOTE: The promise by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ It's our Faith placed in Christ's work)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(NOTE: From Faith to Faith)

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(NOTE: The just live by """HIS""" faith!)

Rom 5:19 (B) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(NOTE: By the OBEDIENCE """OF""" CHRIST many be made righteous)

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but "that which is through the faith of Christ", the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(NOTE: Not by our own righteousness obtained thru, repenting, law keeping, our great obedience. BUT thru the FAITHful atoning works "OF" Christ & our FAITH placed in it/Him)
 
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def

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Is not a by-product of what, exactly? Are you saying works do not arise from the saving work of God in our lives? I sure hope not.



Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Here is my "breakdown" of the passage:

Verse 8 indicates that a born-again believer has been saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and that the believer's salvation is a gift of God, not the product of the believer's effort.

Verse 9 continues the thought of verse 8, emphasizing that no one can obtain the gift of salvation by good works, which dissolves any cause for boasting on the part of the person who is saved.

Verse 10 explains that the one who is saved is so as a consequence of God's work, accomplished through Jesus, for the purpose of producing in the saved person a life of good works.

I don't see that the passage above denies or refutes my contention that good works are the by-product of being saved. This is the very thing verse 10 communicates.

The phrase 'not of yourselves' precedes 'the gift of God' indicating that 'the gift of God' qualifies the preceding phrase 'not of yourselves'. Here, Paul states the 'first' step of salvation is the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift of God, where God is the object of the gift).
 
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aiki

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The phrase 'not of yourselves' precedes 'the gift of God' indicating that 'the gift of God' qualifies the preceding phrase 'not of yourselves'. Here, Paul states the 'first' step of salvation is the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift of God, where God is the object of the gift).

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Actually, the phrase "gift of God" refers back to "by grace you have been saved." The "gift of God" is the gracious gift of salvation God offers to us in Christ our Saviour (" we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus"). Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit, however. Now, of course, the Holy Spirit is the One who imparts to us new spiritual life, He is the One who spiritually regenerates us (Romans 8:9; Romans 8:11; Titus 3:5), by coming to dwell within each born-again believer, but this is not what Paul focuses on in his comments in the above passage. His primary aim appears to be to clarify that our salvation is a gracious work of God, not the product of human effort. In any case, my remark that good works are a by-product of salvation remains unrefuted by Paul's words in the passage above.
 
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Cis.jd

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Having faith doesn't make sure you are a good person. Look at the Pharisees. They believed in God but it was meaningless because they where not good people. They exhibited the same Q&A as arrogant christians today do in regards to this topic: "have you picked up your cross, have you done this... have you done that?" Why, have you? Obviously they think so, showing that this belief has made them feel so highly about themselves which are small steps mirroring the Pharisees that Jesus was against.
 
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RDKirk

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Having faith doesn't make sure you are a good person. Look at the Pharisees. They believed in God but it was meaningless because they where not good people.

It's already been discussed that faith and belief are not the same thing.
 
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