Apostasy

Love the Pilgrims Progress! John Bunyan's Methods of a full salvation... In which the witness of the Spirit is picked up at the Porter's House. And how I would teach the doctrine....

1. Salvation - As the Christian leaves the City of Destruction and makes his way to the Celestial City.
2. Sanctification - At the interpreter's house
3. The Witness of the Spirit - At the porter's house

The City of Destruction The place where evangelists set people on their journey to the Celestial City
The Slough of Despair This represents the mire that well intentioned religious people bring to the way
Legalities Mountain The enemy attempt to indoctrinate pilgrims with doctrine designed to inhibit spiritual light
Plain of Instruction The evangelist sets the pilgrim on the right direction from the “Mr. Worldly Wiseman”
The Wicket Gate The sinners prayer. Salvation.... The pilgrim now enters into the Lord’s country
The Interpreters House This is a time of instruction where caring people instruct and disciple.
Porters House The journey to a higher place where one receives the witness of the spirit.
Valley of Humiliation Time for some trials and testing!
Valley of the Shadow of Death Time to overcome the wicked one!
Vanity Fair Discipled and proven Christians now witness to their present world.
Doubting Castle Christians choose path that takes them down to the terrible giant despair.
Lucre Mountain Temptations of material goods
Demas Silver Mines Represents those trapped by their material possessions and come to a place of all work.
Delectable Mountains Represents revival and a season of refreshing
An Entangling Net The flatterers will try to flatter pilgrims unto a place of high minded spiritual bondage
Enchanted Ground ground to a sound spiritual sleep!
Beulah Land Experienced Christian faith, hope, and charity that shine brightly night and day!
Great River The river flows through various places in the Pilgrims Progress and represents death.
Final Destination After crossing the river, either the Celestial City or the Underworld… Which will it be?

NoahSK said:

Um... okay? I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.

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Just commenting that the Pilgrims Progress is a great read and mapping out the journey. Sometimes we get stuck and the time comes to move on.

Hello NoahSK
Stop worrying! God hasn't abandoned you. The fact you have the desire to repent and serve Him is positive proof that He has not!
You are right in saying that God is our righteous judge, but you need to remember that God is also our heavenly Father, the one who loves and cares for us very deeply, who sent His son to die for us, and wants a close relationship with each and every one of us. It's not just so we can enjoy eternity in Heaven, but so we can enjoy life in all its abundance - right now. Seek Him today and tell him what is on your heart - He genuinely cares for you.

Our relationship with God should revolve around love. Its true that hell exists, but its shouldn't be the reason for doing what God wants. God loves you and me, which is why we were created. We are all sinners but despite this God wants us to have eternal life. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".
1 John 4:8 "Whoever does not love doesn't know God, because God is love"
1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
I advice you to read the bible in order to know God and learn to love him also prayer are powerful.

NoahSK said:

Oh man. I was reading The Pilgrim's Progress and it got to the part about apostasy, and I began to get really nervous. It says how apostates at first seem to make a decision to follow Christ and stuff because they fear hell, but when that fear subsides, they fall back into sin and then end up falling away. I'm so scared this is me. The main reason I'm a Christian at all I'd because I fear of hell. I keep thinking, and I think I have to conclude that if hell didn't exist, and there wasn't any punishment for sin, I probably wouldn't care about being a Christian or doing the right stuff. I know that a Christian is supposed to obey God out of love and stuff, but the only reason I do any of that (when I do at all, I'm falling back into persistent sins and I've stopped reading the Bible and praying) is because I fear the consequences. That's not love. But I can't seem to change this about me. I'm selfish. I'm only in it to save myself. Whenever I think about falling away (this doesn't happen too often, but it happens) I remind myself over and over about hell and how bad it will be. I can't do this. It's apparent I'm not saved. I had an emotional experience because I naturally reacted out of fear, and then when that subsided, I began to stop doing what I should and I began to start sinning again. I'm like a dog returning to its vomit. I didn't truly repent. I don't have saving faith. It's apparent that I'm not saved, and I don't know how I can be.
I just wish that I could truly repent, that I could muster up some sort of love for God, so that I'm not relying on my fear of hell to stay with Him. I hate this about myself. I wish I could want what I'm supposed to and hate what I'm supposed to. I wish I could be changed. I wish that the experience I had was real and that it would have stayed with me instead of going away and leaving me like I was before. I can see that nothing I'm doing is getting me anywhere. It appears God hasn't chosen me.

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You want to love God. That pleases God. There is a secret to God love. Ask God to give you more love for Him. That is a beautiful love prayer you can say. Mostly it is not possible for humans to love God the way we ought to love Him unless He gives us His Spirit. We do not have the ability, power/strength or wisdom to love Him enough and we will be disappointed if we depend on ourselves. Having His Spirit in us makes us to love God the way we ought to love Him because the Holy Spirit loves God intimately. Now that you want to love God, ask God to fill you with His Spirit that enables you to love Him more and more. Trust in God and depend on His Spirit to love Him. And God gives His Spirit to whom He is pleased with so that they can connect closer and love Him more.

You have intrusive thoughts. It's an OCD problem, though we all have such thoughts, occasionally. Something that I found to be helpful, and I find is also suggested professionally, is to accept the unwanted thoughts. Accept that you have them and don't try to suppress them. I know this is really counter-intuitive, but there are a few physical and psychological processes that normally come quite naturally, just so long as we don't try to consciously do them. I won't name the list of things that can become obsessive problems, because I don't want them to become problems for you, but in this case the act of letting a passing thought pass is normally something that comes naturally, but your conscious effort at making it pass is what's keeping it in your mind. You can't stop thinking these things because you're thinking too hard about stopping the thought, which promotes the thing that you're trying to stop.

You really need to understand that the brain deals with a long list of endless possibilities. That's all they are. They're just possibilities. It doesn't mean that you decide to act on them, or that they have become a part of who you are. They aren't wanted thoughts, necessarily. They're just an awareness of possibilities. Ideas can pop into your head, and they can pop back out just as quickly. They don't have to change you or damn you, and they don't have to remain. It's when a passing thought comes and you clutch onto it for dear life...that's when it sticks in your head, because you're fighting it so hard that it can't leave. Even then, the thought doesn't change you. Actions not done and words not spoken are not done and not spoken for a reason: the idea came, and you didn't like it, and you didn't do it. The possibility was recognized and not accepted. There's no reason to fret because it popped into your head. There's still no reason to fret because you obsessed with it so much that you couldn't get it back out, again. If you don't choose it, nurture it and willingly make it part of what you do and who you are, then you can be free from these things, even if they pop into your head a hundred times a day. God won't damn you for an unwanted thought that pops into your head. If that were the case, then none would be saved.

Some things for you to consider:
1) Pilgrim's Progress is not God's inspired Word. Don't form doctrine from it.
2) God did not choose anyone individually to salvation or damnation- the concept that He did is one that influenced Bunyan, but when the Bible speaks of God's choosing it is dealing with the way of salvation, the course, the conditions, etc of salvation- whether we meet those or not is our responsibility; and God neither does that for us nor has He left us without the ability to meet them.
3) You should fear God and fear hell. Jesus said so (Luke 12:4-5, Mark 9:43-48, etc). You cannot love God without receiving Him for the Great authority figure that He is.
4) The idea then that fear of God and love for God cannot co-exist in one's heart is a serious delusion. The two are not opposed and we need to have both (see Deut. 10:12).
5) Now if you ONLY fear hell and are not willing to bow to God and serve Him on His terms, then you have a problem indeed (see James 2:19).
6) But the solution to that problem isn't to stop fearing hell but rather to let the fear of hell help you to understand how good God is and how horrible sin must be for God to justly punish sinners in hell eternally. Is it not right and appropriate that since Christ loved you and paid such a high price to redeem you that you serve Him and suffer for His Word for the rest of your life? How much more fitting is hell for us if we don't receive that He is worthy and that we ought to cooperate wholeheartedly with His purpose of saving us from sins (which lead to hell yet when not repented of)? How can we escape if we neglect so great salvation? (Hebrews 2:3)
7) Whether you ever really repented before or just had a false conversion I do not know, but I do know that true converts can go through with what you are going through. Don't throw away the fear you had before and do seek God now regardless like your eternity depends on it. Don't make a contrast between love and fear. Deal rather with questions like: Do I have a right to myself? Did I ever? Are not God's ways intended for my good? How appropriate is God's punishment on me if I am so proud and ungrateful that I can't believe I am obligated to do things His way, let His Word govern me, and put self aside to trust God and do what I know I ought in faith?
8) Note the connection here and imitate Noah's faith in doing what you know you ought to do before God. Hebrews 11:6-7 "6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
9) Do the above and you'll in time find it easier to reconcile the fear of God and the love of God. Don't wait until you think you've found a perfect answer to act right on what you already know.
10) Above all, don't give up. Remember Hebrews 11:6 above- God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him and the Bible says over and over that He is no respecter of persons!

NoahSK said:

Oh man. I was reading The Pilgrim's Progress and it got to the part about apostasy, and I began to get really nervous. It says how apostates at first seem to make a decision to follow Christ and stuff because they fear hell, but when that fear subsides, they fall back into sin and then end up falling away. I'm so scared this is me. The main reason I'm a Christian at all I'd because I fear of hell. I keep thinking, and I think I have to conclude that if hell didn't exist, and there wasn't any punishment for sin, I probably wouldn't care about being a Christian or doing the right stuff. I know that a Christian is supposed to obey God out of love and stuff, but the only reason I do any of that (when I do at all, I'm falling back into persistent sins and I've stopped reading the Bible and praying) is because I fear the consequences. That's not love. But I can't seem to change this about me. I'm selfish. I'm only in it to save myself. Whenever I think about falling away (this doesn't happen too often, but it happens) I remind myself over and over about hell and how bad it will be. I can't do this. It's apparent I'm not saved. I had an emotional experience because I naturally reacted out of fear, and then when that subsided, I began to stop doing what I should and I began to start sinning again. I'm like a dog returning to its vomit. I didn't truly repent. I don't have saving faith. It's apparent that I'm not saved, and I don't know how I can be.
I just wish that I could truly repent, that I could muster up some sort of love for God, so that I'm not relying on my fear of hell to stay with Him. I hate this about myself. I wish I could want what I'm supposed to and hate what I'm supposed to. I wish I could be changed. I wish that the experience I had was real and that it would have stayed with me instead of going away and leaving me like I was before. I can see that nothing I'm doing is getting me anywhere. It appears God hasn't chosen me.

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That thought underlined is not from God, so ignore it, but deal with your uncertainty. The most people in the world do not really believe in hell or punishment for our sins, and you know it is true that you fear it, imo, that is not a bad thing. If you feel uncertain about your eternal security that is something can be remedied by sincerely seeking the Lord Jesus, & wanting to know the Truth of the Gospel. It is only the devil who wants people to not find the Lord, or give up.
In Rev 3:20 Jesus says, behold, I stand at the door and knock if anyone hears and answers I will come in an dine with him and he with Me" Rev 3:20..... The Bible says Romans 10:16-18 "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. " Do you attend a good Bible believing preaching church? If you don't you should find one , attend it with the intention of spiritually being fed God's Truth. I suggest you speak with the Pastor & get to know him, ask questions. Don't go to a church that is bigger on spiritual rituals then preaching the Word of God, Teaching the Word of God and get baptized. You will be saved by hearing the Gospel of Jesus and you will realize that the Lord Jesus was beaten and nailed to a cross on Calvary to pay the personal debt for your sins, when that happens you will be humbled, repentant and you will know both the Love from the Lord & Love the Lord! Biblehub.com
The Word Brings Salvation
…Romans 10: 16-18 "16 But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”…