What is "born of water"

LoveofTruth · Jul 26, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

John 6:6 clarifies that he is talking about two births of the flesh and of the spirit. So it would seem to be clearly not referring to water baptism in any way.nicodemus just asked Jesus about going into the mother’s womb and being born a second time. Jesus responded to this.

John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

John baptized with water (past tense) but he shall be baptized (future) with the Holy Ghost.

Kris Jordan · Jul 26, 2019

When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:5-7)...

The context of the water in this statement is not a reference to “baptism,” but is a reference to the "water" through which a person is born into the world naturally the first time (aka: amniotic fluid). He clarifies this truth when He says, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Therefore, Jesus is simply distinguishing the “natural birth” (by water) from the “supernatural birth” (by the Spirit). This is further clarified when He says next, “that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.”

Wordkeeper · Jul 26, 2019

Kris Jordan said:
When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:5-7)...

The context of the water in this statement is not a reference to “baptism,” but is a reference to the "water" through which a person is born into the world naturally the first time (aka: amniotic fluid). He clarifies this truth when He says, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Therefore, Jesus is simply distinguishing the “natural birth” (by water) from the “supernatural birth” (by the Spirit). This is further clarified when He says next, “that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.”

Actually Christ's baptism differed in the sense that the bread He gave access to was bread from heaven: great works of God, supernatural works and awesome biblical explanations of Scripture.

Deuteronomy 18
15"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

John 8
28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

Luke 5
34Jesus replied, "Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while He is with them? 35But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast."

Psalms 78
19They spoke against God; they said, "Can God really spread a table in the wilderness?

Albion · Jul 26, 2019

The "natural birth" argument was necessary as a way for people in modern times who were of the Anabaptist tradition to explain away their rejection of the sacrament as it had always been understood. But that reworking of the sacrament does not fit with the words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and vice-versa.

The latter asked Jesus what a man must do...AND he also suggested a possible meaning. So it would make no sense for Jesus to know that Nicodemus was interpreting the symbolism correctly only to then reject it entirely, leaving Nicodemus to go away confused.

And as for the matter of flesh vs. spirit, this is a false dichotomy. Both are involved in the self-same sacrament. That is proven by the dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus, and there is no reason for anyone to insist that they are to be separated.

thecolorsblend · Jul 26, 2019

DamianWarS said:
What is "born of water"

Water baptism.

It is simply undeniable that Christians must be baptized as that is the ordinary means of salvation.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
Water baptism.

It is simply undeniable that Christians must be baptized as that is the ordinary means of salvation.

except of course in the cases where baptism didn't happen

def · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

Born of water and spirit.

1) Water refers to the living water which Jesus gives (John 4:14), also known as the water of life (Revelation 22:17).
2) This water comes by believing the Scripture (John 7:38).
3) The water washes a person's spirit (Ephesians 5;26), which regenerates it (Titus 3:5).
4) The spirit lives, born of an incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).
5) The born-again spirit enters the kingdom of God for sanctification (Hebrews 12:23, Ephesians 5:26, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2).
6) The spiritual body inherits the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Conclusion: The Holy Spirit also comes by believing the Scripture. Therefore, water is the symbol of the Holy Spirit. Water is used to represent the regenerative function of the Holy Spirit. Blood is another term associated with the Holy Spirit - the Spirit, water, and blood are one (1 John 5:8). Therefore, born of water and spirit is to be born of the Holy Spirit and a person's spirit. Un-regenerated spirits return to God who gave them (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

def said:
The Holy Spirit also comes by believing the Scripture. Therefore, water is the symbol of the Holy Spirit.

the text tells us "water and the spirit" contrasting the two not saying "water is the spirit". you seem to have conflicting answers calling the water the living water of Christ and calling it a symbol of the spirit? which is it? and how does the text support this?

def · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
the text tells us "water and the spirit" contrasting the two not saying "water is the spirit". you seem to have conflicting answers calling the water the living water of Christ and calling it a symbol of the spirit? which is it? and how does the text support this?

Jesus is not contrasting natural birth with spiritual birth (spirit), if that is so, angels will not be in the kingdom of God, but we are told that the spirit of just men are accompanied by innumerable angels. Jesus is speaking about the birth of the spirit. Scripture uses the term 'washed' and 'cleansed' as the outcome of the regenerated spirit by the water. Water is not natural birth and not water baptism, water is the symbol of the Holy Spirit.

Wordkeeper · Jul 27, 2019

def said:
Born of water and spirit.

1) Water refers to the living water which Jesus gives (John 4:14), also known as the water of life (Revelation 22:17).
2) This water comes by believing the Scripture (John 7:38).
3) The water washes a person's spirit (Ephesians 5;26), which regenerates it (Titus 3:5).
4) The spirit lives, born of an incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).
5) The born-again spirit enters the kingdom of God for sanctification (Hebrews 12:23, Ephesians 5:26, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2).
6) The spiritual body inherits the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Conclusion: The Holy Spirit also comes by believing the Scripture. Therefore, water is the symbol of the Holy Spirit. Water is used to represent the regenerative function of the Holy Spirit. Blood is another term associated with the Holy Spirit - the Spirit, water, and blood are one (1 John 5:8). Therefore, born of water and spirit is to be born of the Holy Spirit and a person's spirit. Un-regenerated spirits return to God who gave them (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

John's baptism, with water, saved from the wrath, but disciples cannot be a blessing to the world.

Christ's baptism, with the Holy Spirit and fire, is into drinking from the Rock, like Moses's, and disciples can become a blessing to the world, like Joshua and Caleb:

Luke 10
20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

That's why the least in the Kingdom is greater than John, who was the greatest of those born of women...

thecolorsblend · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
except of course in the cases where baptism didn't happen

Baptism always happens. Baptism of water is the ordinary means of salvation. But for other cases, there are baptisms of blood or baptisms of desire.

But it is still baptism and baptism now saves you.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

def said:
Jesus is not contrasting natural birth with spiritual birth...

perhaps not, but he has differentiated the words water and the spirit. you seem to only explain half of it (the spirit) and then just pretend they're the same thing. why even bother saying water if its the same as the spirit?

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
there are baptisms of blood or baptisms of desire.

the OP asks "What is born of water" to which you replied "Water baptism" but now are you saying its also not just water? :scratch:

do you care to rephrase?

Danthemailman · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
perhaps not, but he has differentiated the words water and the spirit. you seem to only explain half of it (the spirit) and then just pretend they're the same thing. why even bother saying water if its the same as the spirit?

The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Water is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word (not through plain ordinary H20) which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).

In Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word (not by plain ordinary H20).

Also in 1 Peter 1:22, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God (not through plain ordinary H20) which lives and abides forever.

In Titus 3:5, we read - ..washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

These are not references to water baptism, but to spiritual washing or purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation.

def · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
perhaps not, but he has differentiated the words water and the spirit. you seem to only explain half of it (the spirit) and then just pretend they're the same thing. why even bother saying water if its the same as the spirit?

Most Bibles incorrectly capitalise the 'spirit' in 'born of water and spirit'; the spirit refers to a person's spirit (we are body and spirit). Thus, should be 'born of Holy Spirit-water and spirit'.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

def said:
Most Bibles incorrectly capitalise the 'spirit' in 'born of water and spirit'; the spirit refers to a person's spirit (we are body and spirit). Thus, should be 'born of Holy Spirit-water and spirit'.

by most, you must mean all. why is your interpretation better than the rest?

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2019

Danthemailman said:
The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Water is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word (not through plain ordinary H20) which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).

In Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word (not by plain ordinary H20).

Also in 1 Peter 1:22, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God (not through plain ordinary H20) which lives and abides forever.

In Titus 3:5, we read - ..washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

These are not references to water baptism, but to spiritual washing or purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation.

so why even say water? why not just spirit?

Albion · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
except of course in the cases where baptism didn't happen

We cannot always talk as though an occasional exception that God has allowed or created means that everything which has been set out for the billions of His people through the ages is not to be bothered with.

Yes, the good thief probably wasn't baptized, but we believe he was saved. We are not the good thief, however.

A couple of people in Scripture ascended bodily into heaven but that doesn't mean we will.

There are people who are saved but never were baptized--or received Holy Communion--but that doesn't mean neither of those sacraments is intended for us or expected of us or beneficial for us.

Albion · Jul 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
so why even say water? why not just spirit?

Every sacrament uses physical properties in order to convey the spiritual meaning. Similarly, Jesus made mud with spittle to apply to the blind man's eyes. He could more easily have said a few words and cured him, right? (John 9:6)

Albion · Jul 27, 2019

Danthemailman said:
Water is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God

DamianWarS said:
so why even say water? why not just spirit?

So...Spirit could be an emblem of the word of God.

How would that work??

What is "born of water"

What is "born of water"

Natural birth

Water baptism

Jesus, the living water

other

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