Are you saved or delusional?

Romans 8 said:

Did you copy and paste this reply? I read it earlier in this thread, or in another one. Do you have the capacity to hold a conversation or do you just collect snippets and paste your responses? You're not the only one in the forum that does this. But in fact most of the people in the forum that communicate in this fashion share the same beliefs in work-based salvation.

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It's my original written work that I copied and pasted it from in another place. Rather than reinvent the wheel all over again with a fresh discussion, I am giving you the best answer I had already created. If you do not like the answer I cannot help that. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with giving a repeat reply from something you written well at another point before. I have tons of articles on many topics in my Google docs and I sometimes copy parts of them and or the whole thing to teach others. But that does not mean I do not have fluid conversations with other believers sometimes, though. It depends on how God leads me.

You said:

It doesn't sound like you understand the difference between salvation, and regeneration. Perhaps you might investigate how these two different concepts actually work instead of pasting your comments which seem to conflate them as above.

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Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Do you believe this passage?

Titus 3:5 says,
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Do you believe the words (bolded in red) in this verse?

You said:

If you can't write your own replies, people are just going to ignore you. Put in some of your own thoughts and effort sir.

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You would not be the first person who wrongfully assumed that my own written work was from somebody else. I have written some other in depth studies with Scripture before (a lot more lengthy than the one you seen), and others thought I did not write such a thing (but I did).

Side Note:

As for quoting articles by others: Well, there are times I do find articles (written by others) that are really insightful. If I quote from them (on rare occasion), I usually leave a source link. I am also not allowed to quote the whole article, either.

I sometimes get panicked and think I’m delusional in my salvation.
I have to tell myself that “I believe and trust the Lord Christ” and “Lord have mercy on me, a sinner” and recognize doubt is not from God.
I try each day to repent and turn away from sin, even in my thoughts (thinking mean thoughts about strangers when driving, etc) and try to produce good fruits. I try to love others because Christ loved me first.
I pray and hope that I will be better. I am still such a babe in Christ though I was saved like 8 years ago

Bipolargirl said:

I sometimes get panicked and think I’m delusional in my salvation.
I have to tell myself that “I believe and trust the Lord Christ” and “Lord have mercy on me, a sinner” and recognize doubt is not from God.
I try each day to repent and turn away from sin, even in my thoughts (thinking mean thoughts about strangers when driving, etc) and try to produce good fruits. I try to love others because Christ loved me first.
I pray and hope that I will be better. I am still such a babe in Christ though I was saved like 8 years ago

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You seem to be doing well. God bless you ...

Trusting God to manage your salvation "frees" you to grow into the mind of Christ ... and not to get stuck in disputations about spiritual "milk" ...

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Do you believe this passage?

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You're attempting to build a strawman argument. Maybe you should ask yourself this question.

Titus 3:5 says,
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Do you believe the words (bolded in red) in this verse?

Like I said, go and read on regeneration. It's an ongoing process.

You would not be the first person who wrongfully assumed that my own written work was from somebody else. I have written some other in depth studies with Scripture before (a lot more lengthy than the one you seen), and others thought I did not write such a thing (but I did).

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I wasn't implying you stole your answers. I meant that you're acting like a robot.

Another observation I find with the "snippet works based" members of this forum is they don't take time to read the posts of who they're supposedly conversing with. It's like they're not open to information which contradicts their position. They look for key words in another's post, and immediately find a snippet which they consider in opposition to the point.

It would benefit you well to listen to what other Christians have to say, read the Bible verses with an open mind, and discover the simple truth of what Jesus taught regarding salvation. I used to think like you somewhat; That it just can't be that easy. But all the we must do is rely on Jesus and what he did on the cross. This world we live in since we are born is works based. Even as children there are things we must do to please our parents, teachers, and our friends. Then we join the workforce and work for our rent, food, clothing, gas, car, etc. Years of this conditioning makes it a difficult concept to grasp that we can get something of such value for only believing that it's free and surrendering to it. So yes I understand the struggle. But the Bible is very clear on this, you cannot buy, work, or barter your way into heaven. You must trust Jesus.

God Bless.

A_Thinker said:

Trusting God to manage your salvation "frees" you to grow into the mind of Christ ... and not to get stuck in disputations about spiritual "milk" ...

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

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Great post!

Bipolargirl said:

I sometimes get panicked and think I’m delusional in my salvation.
I have to tell myself that “I believe and trust the Lord Christ” and “Lord have mercy on me, a sinner” and recognize doubt is not from God.
I try each day to repent and turn away from sin, even in my thoughts (thinking mean thoughts about strangers when driving, etc) and try to produce good fruits. I try to love others because Christ loved me first.
I pray and hope that I will be better. I am still such a babe in Christ though I was saved like 8 years ago

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If you are bipolar, you have a lot of challenges in living out your faith. Just cling to the promise of 1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8 said:

If I say, if one jumps off the empire state building and hits the ground he will die, is the act of dying after he hits the ground past, present, or future tense?

It doesn't say one will be saved after one's death. It says if ones confesses, he will be saved. There is no other condition listed which need be met.




I'll say what I said to your "works" counterpart. It's fine if you want to believe that if it makes you strive further. But if not, then it's fair to say you're simply a hypocrite.

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What '"works" counterpart' do you have in mind? (in these long discussions with many people, it's possible to forget who was saying what)

Here's the only one I subscribe to, stated in various ways in the New Testament, but here in Ephesians chapter 2 stated in such a bringing-things-together helpfully form:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2 NIV

Isn't this so wonderful? He has made us alive in Christ when we were dead in transgressions! Hallelujah.

It's so much better worded than about 99% of ways people try to say we are saved by grace not works (it brings us this message so powerfully) -- it is so much more communicative and helpful. When I first read it again about 12 or 14 years ago, at first I thought 'Praise God! And...how do we 'do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do'? The answers are in Romans 8 -- to walk in the spirit, following the spirit, instead of the flesh, and in the most complete form in John 15 -- verses 1 through 17, which any Christian should eventually take to heart, and that's how to understand verse 10.

How are you this morning?

Romans 8 said:

The verse is talking about people whom are trusting in their own works, and not the work that Jesus did on the cross. These people are not living in Christ, but in their own self righteous pride. So although they may profess to be Christians, they are not true Christians at heart, and do not know Christ.

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Are there many like that you've met? I've been in a lot of churches in a lot of cities and talked with a lot of people, and don't usually see that now a days. Perhaps that's because I've been over 8 years now in a Lutheran church (where the attitude is very far to the opposite).

But in the past in some churches, many years back, I have on the other hand met more people that seemed judgemental -- that clearly disapproved of me, and others, by their attitudes -- which would be a sign of exactly that problem, prideful self-righteousness.

Bible Highlighter said:

Do you think George Sodini believed in Jesus the right way?

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”"
Do you think Jesus will say to George Sodini that he never knew Him?
Or do you think George is going to make it?

Source:
George Sodini.

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An atheist might say that because there are hypocrites and sinners in the Church, that all of Christianity is bunk. Is he right? Is that a fair assessment? I think not. If I want to judge the musical ability of, say, Mozart, do I listen to one of his musical compositions played by a sixth-grade public school band, tooting, and honking, and discordant? Or do I listen to Mozart's work played by the very best musicians, a philharmonic orchestra perhaps, who render his music with excellence? Clearly, the latter is the way to go. You, though, have chosen the sixth-grade band route, holding up the worst example of an OSAS adherent you can find as though doing so ought to discount OSAS. But George Sodini no more proves OSAS wrong than a sixth-grade band playing Mozart's work badly proves Mozart sucked as a composer and musician.

Romans 8 said:

You're attempting to build a strawman argument. Maybe you should ask yourself this question.

Titus 3:5 says,
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Do you believe the words (bolded in red) in this verse?

Like I said, go and read on regeneration. It's an ongoing process.

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Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ this morning. I hope you are doing well today. Anyways, to get down to business:

Whatever your view of the "regeneration" (whether it be a one time act like me, or an ongoing process), it is dealing with salvation because Titus 3:5 says, "he saved us, by the washing of regeneration." Before you said that regeneration and salvation are two different things, and I was confusing the two. But Titus 3:5 makes it clear that they are connected if you were to read the verse several times in prayer and with an open mind.

Anyways, I believe the "regeneration" here in Titus 3:5 is referring to a one time act of being born again spiritually whereby we are given a new heart with new desires by the Spirit.

First, the context of Titus 3:5 is "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation." We are saved by his mercy (Which is a one time event in the past when we first accepted Jesus as our Savior). This is the entrance gate and thus means it is the basis for our foundation for our faith. So if mercy is how we are initially saved, it makes sense that the immediate following context is also referring to "Initial Salvation" (Especially when there is no indicator in the text suggesting that "regeneration" is extended over the course of our entire life).

Also, the context of the proceeding verses tells us it is in reference to: "Initial Salvation."

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, "
(Titus 3:5-5).

Verse 3: Our old life of when we were living in sin.
Verse 4: After the love of God the Father appeared to mankind by the sending of His Son (Jesus Christ - the Savior).
Verse 5: We now have an entrance gate to his mercy and not by any kind of works righteousness alone (without God's grace).

The word "saved" is also past tense, as well.

5 "...he saved us [past tense], by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The following verses continue the line of thought of "Initial Salvation."

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Verse 6: God the Father poured out on us (or shed upon us) the things like mercy, and the regeneration (or renewing) of the Holy Ghost) through Jesus Christ (our acceptance of Jesus Christ).

Verse 7: Justified by his grace. This happens one time when we first come to Him. Justification of faith is continual. But justification by his grace is a one time act that He accomplished for us and we can receive via through faith. But the whole view of verses 3-7 here paint a picture of Titus 3:5 as saying, "Initial Salvation."

Second, in John 3:5 it says,


We need to be born again by the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God (salvation). How is that not a regeneration or a spiritual change of our heart or spiritual transformation?

You said:

I wasn't implying you stole your answers. I meant that you're acting like a robot.

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That is not what you said before. You said,


You said, I quote:


My response:


By your words: You are saying here that these were not my thoughts. In either case, it is okay. I am not looking to cast any stones, brother. I am not seeking to attack you personally. I always strive to attack the belief, and not the person. Nobody will get away with anything. For even I must face the Lord one day for what I have done in this life for Him. All things will be revealed. All things that are hidden will come to light. In either case, I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus. So no stones will be thrown at you, friend.

You said:

Another observation I find with the "snippet works based" members of this forum is they don't take time to read the posts of who they're supposedly conversing with. It's like they're not open to information which contradicts their position. They look for key words in another's post, and immediately find a snippet which they consider in opposition to the point.

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I can say the same of "Belief Alone Proponents" and or "Sin and Still Be Saved Proponents."

You said:

It would benefit you well to listen to what other Christians have to say, read the Bible verses with an open mind, and discover the simple truth of what Jesus taught regarding salvation. I used to think like you somewhat;

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I don't think that you ever thought like me before.
If you did, you would not believe the way you do now.
I see Belief Alone-ism or saying that: "Future Sin is Forgiven" for the believer as turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For if a person knows all sin is forgiven, they will take sin less seriously and not really worry about it all too much. They can easily have the mindset that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality - of which Jude 1:4 warns us about).

You said:

That it just can't be that easy. But all the we must do is rely on Jesus and what he did on the cross. This world we live in since we are born is works based. Even as children there are things we must do to please our parents, teachers, and our friends. Then we join the workforce and work for our rent, food, clothing, gas, car, etc. Years of this conditioning makes it a difficult concept to grasp that we can get something of such value for only believing that it's free and surrendering to it. So yes I understand the struggle. But the Bible is very clear on this, you cannot buy, work, or barter your way into heaven. You must trust Jesus.

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Actually, during Jesus's time, He had a problem with the majority of the religious people (i.e. the Pharisees, etc.). Scripture says there is nothing new under the sun. The majority of the churches here in America believe in a sin and still be saved type belief. This is not the narrow way that Jesus presented. For Jesus told us about how certain sins can condemn us (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46).

This should be no surprise. One of the first lies by the devil (the serpent) was that he told Eve that he could break God's command and still be alive (saved). God said that Adam would die the day they ate of the wrong tree. But they did not physically die. They died spiritually in that day and were cast out of the Garden Paradise. They needed to be renewed with the Lord again. But today, most are believing one of the first lies of the devil in the Garden. They are saying, "Yea, ye shall not die." (in relation to breaking God's commandments).

You said:

God Bless.

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Thank you.
May the Lord's good ways always be upon you (even if we disagree strongly over what the Bible says).

aiki said:

An atheist might say that because there are hypocrites and sinners in the Church, that all of Christianity is bunk. Is he right? Is that a fair assessment? I think not. If I want to judge the musical ability of, say, Mozart, do I listen to one of his musical compositions played by a sixth-grade public school band, tooting, and honking, and discordant? Or do I listen to Mozart's work played by the very best musicians, a philharmonic orchestra perhaps, who render his music with excellence? Clearly, the latter is the way to go. You, though, have chosen the sixth-grade band route, holding up the worst example of an OSAS adherent you can find as though doing so ought to discount OSAS. But George Sodini no more proves OSAS wrong than a sixth-grade band playing Mozart's work badly proves Mozart sucked as a composer and musician.

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Are you under the impression that these sixth graders will one day be like Mozart? I am sure they can be if they practiced hard enough. We are told to endure to the end, overcome, as a part of salvation. We are told to continue in His love, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness. We are told to be faithful unto death, and we will receive the crown of life. Of course such verses have to be rendered as saying something else with your kind of belief. You cannot read them plainly and just believe them at face value.

Anyways, the problem you fail to understand is that it is a violation of God's morality or goodness to save us while we intentionally have the mindset that we can do evil on some level and still be saved while doing so (Which is what Belief Alone-ism or "All our future sin is forgiven us" suggests). This would mean a Christian can be axe murderer, a rapist, a child abuser, etc. But many Christians (not all of them) will of course say, that no Christian will ever be like that. So then it comes down to you agreeing with a certain base level of holiness that you would agree is acceptable to the Kingdom of God. It always comes down that. You have to meet some level or standard of holiness in your mind as a part of the Kingdom. But what of the other sins that the Bible does condemn that is not in your view of meeting your level of holy living as a part of God's Kingdom? That's the problem that you cannot see (or that you are unwilling to see).

Back in the Garden, Eve was deceived into buying into the lie of the devil that she could break God's command and not die. Today, this same lie is being pushed by the enemy. Sin, and still be saved. Go ahead, and break God's commands. You will not die. That is what it sounds like to me. It sounds like an echo from what happened in the Garden Paradise that Adam and Eve were banished from.

MasterYourLife said:

I will let Jesus answer your question.

Not everyone enters heaven, but only "he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter".

What's the will of the Father?

Well let's look at what Jesus said throughout his time on earth, over and over again.
"I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me."

Therefore... everything Jesus did was the will of the Father.

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For HIM, yes.

MasterYourLife said:

Thus... we must do everything Jesus did.

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It is not God's will for me to go to Israel, learn Aramaic,teach Jews, preach to Pharisees, touch lepers, raise the dead, face an illegal trial for blasphemy, be flogged, given a crown of thorns and be crucified.

It IS God's will that I should believe in the Son and have eternal life, John 6:40.
It IS God's will that I should be holy, 1 Thessalonians 4:3.
It IS God's will that I should be joyful always, pray at all times and give thanks in all circumstances, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18.

Bible Highlighter said:

Are you under the impression that these sixth graders will one day be like Mozart? I am sure they can be if they practiced hard enough. We are told to endure to the end, overcome, as a part of salvation. We are told to continue in His love, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness. We are told to be faithful unto death, and we will receive the crown of life.

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All of this entirely misses (or deflects) the point of my analogy. It is no more reasonable for you to use the example of the evil George Sodini as proof that OSAS is bad than it is for an atheist to point to, say, the adulterous and hypocritical Jim Baker as proof that Christianity is bad. Trying to say that George S. proves OSAS is wrong because George held to some (warped) version of OSAS is just a giant non sequitur. It seems to me that a BIG part of why you go so wrong in so much of your thinking about salvation is your apparent inability to discern when you are guilty of non sequiturs.

Bible Highlighter said:

Of course such verses have to be rendered as saying something else with your kind of belief. You cannot read them plainly and just believe them at face value.

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Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Bible Highlighter said:

Anyways, the problem you fail to understand is that it is a violation of God's morality or goodness to save us while we intentionally have the mindset that we can do evil on some level and still be saved while doing so (Which is what Belief Alone-ism or "All our future sin is forgiven us" suggests).

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But this is a Strawman of what I actually believe as a proponent of OSAS. And here, too, you expose why you can't get at the truth. You're working from cartoons of positions that oppose your own. It's so much easier to knock these caricatures down than to deal with the actual views and arguments of those whose views differ from your own.

Bible Highlighter said:

So then it comes down to you agreeing with a certain base level of holiness that you would agree is acceptable to the Kingdom of God. It always comes down that. You have to meet some level or standard of holiness in your mind as a part of the Kingdom.

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See? Here, again, you've erected a weird contortion of what I believe. You do this with Scripture also, imposing your view upon it no matter how much you must twist it to do so.

Bible Highlighter said:

Back in the Garden, Eve was deceived into buying into the lie of the devil that she could break God's command and not die. Today, this same lie is being pushed by the enemy. Sin, and still be saved. Go ahead, and break God's commands. You will not die. That is what it sounds like to me. It sounds like an echo from what happened in the Garden Paradise that Adam and Eve were banished from.

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Enter the Redeemer, Jesus Christ, who justifies, sanctifies and redeems us from the sin and death of the Fall. (1 Corinthians 1:30) You want fear to motivate rather than love, it seems. Apparently, you want Self-preservation to move the believer rather than joyful love for Christ. You appear to want the effort, the work, of a believer to be as necessary to salvation as the atoning work of Christ. How this doesn't all strike you as heretical and even rather blasphemous is a wonder to me.

Bible Highlighter said:

Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ this morning. I hope you are doing well today. Anyways, to get down to business:

Whatever your view of the "regeneration" (whether it be a one time act like me, or an ongoing process), it is dealing with salvation because Titus 3:5 says, "he saved us, by the washing of regeneration." Before you said that regeneration and salvation are two different things, and I was confusing the two. But Titus 3:5 makes it clear that they are connected if you were to read the verse several times in prayer and with an open mind.

Anyways, I believe the "regeneration" here in Titus 3:5 is referring to a one time act of being born again spiritually whereby we are given a new heart with new desires by the Spirit.

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It seems our views are opposite. I believe we can only be born again once, and regeneration is an ongoing process until we die physically. Satan's big lie is that what Jesus did was not enough. That we ourselves must attain salvation. This sort if thinking is very dangerous. What it's actually saying is that Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. That it's not enough. Well this is a lie from hell. Jesus is enough for past, present, and future generations.

We need to be born again by the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God (salvation). How is that not a regeneration or a spiritual change of our heart or spiritual transformation?

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Regeneration starts when God's Spirit is sealed in us. God's Spirit is sealed in us when we are born again / saved.

That is not what you said before. You said,

"If you can't write your own replies, people are just going to ignore you. Put in some of your own thoughts and effort sir." by: ~ R-8.​

You said, I quote:

#1 "If you can't write your own replies."
#2. "Put in some of your own thoughts."​

My response:

#1. "But I did write my own replies."
#2. I did put in my own thoughts.​

By your words: You are saying here that these were not my thoughts. In either case, it is okay. I am not looking to cast any stones, brother. I am not seeking to attack you personally. I always strive to attack the belief, and not the person. Nobody will get away with anything. For even I must face the Lord one day for what I have done in this life for Him. All things will be revealed. All things that are hidden will come to light. In either case, I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus. So no stones will be thrown at you, friend.

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What I meant was adding your current thoughts to the current conversation, and not pasting something you wrote for another conversation. It'd be better to write your main point as a single sentence than copy/pasting a few paragraphs. Perhaps you're a perfectionist and it takes you a while before you get your response just right, or, you can't remember what your argument is? I'm just stating that I think most people prefer an organic conversation than a canned response.

I don't think that you ever thought like me before.
If you did, you would not believe the way you do now.

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No one thinks exactly the same, but yes, I thought along similar lines. However, I was open to listening to the opposition and they helped me to realize that my thoughts were indeed works based salvation. Again, this line of thinking is demonic. Please go back and read post #183 @A_Thinker who posted regarding Hebrews. We must lay the foundation first before we can move on to deeper things or we will simply go around in circles and how can our faith develop if we don't even believe what Jesus truly has done for us on the cross?

I see Belief Alone-ism or saying that: "Future Sin is Forgiven" for the believer as turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For if a person knows all sin is forgiven, they will take sin less seriously and not really worry about it all too much. They can easily have the mindset that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality - of which Jude 1:4 warns us about).

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Again, you misunderstand what regeneration actually means. We don't need to be policed into the life of a Christian. We just need the Holy Spirit.

Actually, during Jesus's time, He had a problem with the majority of the religious people (i.e. the Pharisees, etc.). Scripture says there is nothing new under the sun. The majority of the churches here in America believe in a sin and still be saved type belief. This is not the narrow way that Jesus presented. For Jesus told us about how certain sins can condemn us (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46).

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So I guess you've not sinned then since you were born again? We will continue sinning until our physical deaths. When we fall off the horse, we get back on and ask God for His forgiveness. This is how we carry our cross.

This should be no surprise. One of the first lies by the devil (the serpent) was that he told Eve that he could break God's command and still be alive (saved). God said that Adam would die the day they ate of the wrong tree. But they did not physically die. They died spiritually in that day and were cast out of the Garden Paradise. They needed to be renewed with the Lord again. But today, most are believing one of the first lies of the devil in the Garden. They are saying, "Yea, ye shall not die." (in relation to breaking God's commandments).

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While I agree with you that Adam and Eve died spiritually; even Paul, one of Jesus' most victorious disciples fought against sin until the end. We cannot live a sinless life, we will fail, but again we pick up our cross and continue moving forward.

May the Lord's good ways always be upon you (even if we disagree strongly over what the Bible says).

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And you sir. I pray that you will keep an open mind about this foundational belief so that you may move forward in what God has for you in this life. God Bless!

Romans 8 said:

It seems our views are opposite. I believe we can only be born again once, and regeneration is an ongoing process until we die physically. Satan's big lie is that what Jesus did was not enough. That we ourselves must attain salvation. This sort if thinking is very dangerous. What it's actually saying is that Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. That it's not enough. Well this is a lie from hell. Jesus is enough for past, present, and future generations.




Regeneration starts when God's Spirit is sealed in us. God's Spirit is sealed in us when we are born again / saved.





What I meant was adding your current thoughts to the current conversation, and not pasting something you wrote for another conversation. It'd be better to write your main point as a single sentence than copy/pasting a few paragraphs. Perhaps you're a perfectionist and it takes you a while before you get your response just right, or, you can't remember what your argument is? I'm just stating that I think most people prefer an organic conversation than a canned response.



No one thinks exactly the same, but yes, I thought along similar lines. However, I was open to listening to the opposition and they helped me to realize that my thoughts were indeed works based salvation. Again, this line of thinking is demonic. Please go back and read post #183 @A_Thinker who posted regarding Hebrews. We must lay the foundation first before we can move on to deeper things or we will simply go around in circles and how can our faith develop if we don't even believe what Jesus truly has done for us on the cross?




Again, you misunderstand what regeneration actually means. We don't need to be policed into the life of a Christian. We just need the Holy Spirit.




So I guess you've not sinned then since you were born again? We will continue sinning until our physical deaths. When we fall off the horse, we get back on and ask God for His forgiveness. This is how we carry our cross.



While I agree with you that Adam and Eve died spiritually; even Paul, one of Jesus' most victorious disciples fought against sin until the end. We cannot live a sinless life, we will fail, but again we pick up our cross and continue moving forward.



And you sir. I pray that you will keep an open mind about this foundational belief so that you may move forward in what God has for you in this life. God Bless!

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The problem is that Belief Alone-ism or believing that future sin is forgiven a person leads a person to treat God's grace into a license for immorality. So the fruits are bad. How so?

George Sodini is one example.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

Source:
George Sodini

Bible Highlighter said:

The problem is that Belief Alone-ism or believing that future sin is forgiven a person leads a person to treat God's grace into a license for immorality. So the fruits are bad. How so?

George Sodini is one example.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

Source:
George Sodini

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If you're going to use emotions to determine how salvation works you're not likely going to fair well. Emotional response is not a logical way to think. We have no idea what went through this man's head, nor where he is today. He was clearly demon possessed if he murdered innocent people. I don't know where he is today, nor do I care, and more importantly, neither would I allow hypothetical scenarios determine how I view salvation. God isn't "fair". The first will be last, and the last will be first..."fairness" is a liberal value and a trick of the devil. Life isn't fair, this is reality.

Romans 8 said:

If you're going to use emotions to determine how salvation works you're not likely going to fair well. Emotional response is not a logical way to think. We have no idea what went through this man's head, nor where he is today. He was clearly demon possessed if he murdered innocent people. I don't know where he is today, nor do I care, and more importantly, neither would I allow hypothetical scenarios determine how I view salvation. God isn't "fair". The first will be last, and the last will be first..."fairness" is a liberal value and a trick of the devil. Life isn't fair, this is reality.

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The fact that you did not deny what he did was not befitting of being in the kingdom is not morally correct. You said life isn’t fair. I am sorry, the Bible describes God as fair in His Judgement and that He is good. If you cannot see such an obvious problem, then we are done talking. I cannot appeal to you on any moral grounds, then there is nothing in Scripture, and or any real life example can help for you to see where I am coming from.

Bible Highlighter said:

You said life isn’t fair. I am sorry, the Bible describes God as fair in His Judgement and that He is good.

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Fairness of life and God's judgement are not the same thing. God is a fair judge but what He does with His creation is up to his discretion.

Romans 9:19-21

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

If you cannot see such an obvious problem, then we are done talking. I cannot appeal to you on any moral grounds, then there is nothing in Scripture, and or any real life example can help for you to see (where I am coming from).

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No worries. I believe a seed was planted, I cannot ask for more than this. Another will water it, and God will make it grow.

If you get a moment, this is a good documentary on salvation, and the lies being taught by false prophets and the apostate church:


God Bless!

Romans 8 said:

Fairness of life and God's judgement are not the same thing. God is a fair judge but what He does with His creation is up to his discretion.

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It is true that God is fair, and just in His judgments. But I do not think we are in agreement on the basis of God's fair judgments, and or His basis for His goodness (because you did not condemn the idea that George Sodini is in God's Kingdom because of his evil actions). You do not seem to grasp why that is wrong. Now, I do realize that God can take life, and or place man in any situation He chooses for His greater glory and purposes and plans, but it would not be at the compromise of His good ways and in not be at the elimination of the potential for all people to accept the gospel, and for them to live holy lives. Everyone (who lives out this life) has the free will capacity to accept the Lord (under the drawing of God in His timing), and to live a holy life by the power of God working in them.

But by your response, you gave the impression that men like George Sodini who murder people, and then take their own lives could be saved. For you did not outright say that this man was clearly not saved by his evil actions. This implies that you may believe that a believer can live an immoral life style or they may fall into horrible sin and then die, and still be saved. But wouldn't God have to agree with sin in order to make this plan of salvation work? For Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). How can we have the mind of Christ if we justify sin or evil as a part of God's kingdom? The short answer is that we can't. Our minds have to be like Christ (who did not justify sin or wrong doing in any way because Christ Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh).

You said:

Romans 9:19-21

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

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You are taking this passage out of context.

It is talking about the inclusion of the Gentiles and how Israel (as a nation) is upset over that.

24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."

Try reading this article here for clarity:

Analysis of Romans 9 and Calvinistic Arguments
(Note: May have to enlarge the text on this website; If you have a browser "like Safari" you can read in reader view to enlarge the text).

You said:

No worries. I believe a seed was planted,

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Sorry, I see the belief that you are proposing as immoral.
So no "seed" has been planted because I completely reject what you are proposing and find it to be morally bankrupt.
I see the belief that you are proposing as not in line with the actual context of the verses you quote. The belief you propose also has to ignore whole swaths of Scripture, as well. So I see the belief that you are proposing as being unbiblical, too.

You said:

If you get a moment, this is a good documentary on salvation, and the lies being taught by false prophets and the apostate church:

God Bless!

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Sorry, I am not interested in any source (whether by article, video, etc.) you can provide because we do not agree on the basics of morality and or the goodness of God (Which should be the bare minimum requirement for a person to have in even discussing the Bible - IMO).

All these arguments are redundant really, as we all agree, yes?, with this:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2 NIV


Now, if someone wants to cancel or discount, or just ignore verse 8 or verse 10, either -- then there is indeed something to talk about.

Does everyone agree that:

by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ... and we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Everyone agree? We are saved only by grace through faith, nothing else, and then we absolutely are to do good works which God prepared for us to do.

Leave out either, and it's a very serious problem as you learn in Matthew chapter 7.

How do we "do good works which God prepared for us to do"?
By walking in the spirit, not the flesh -- as Paul instructs us Romans chapter 8

And that for us is sometimes effort, Paul says:

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

It will be helpful for anyone who hasn't read what our Lord instructed us in John chapter 15 verses 1-17 to listen to His words and take them to heart, and have them abide in you.