Are you saved or delusional?

SkyWriting · Jul 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Before you said reject. Now you are singing a different tune. So which is it?

Same tune but a different note in the tune.

GenemZ · Jul 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You miss the point. The point is that a believer who holds on to any grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death) is going to cast out of the Kingdom (Please read carefully Matthew 13:41-42).

Its only by the power of grace we do not sin. Any unbelievers so inclined have no power to stop sinning. What was your point?

A_Thinker · Jul 25, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Let's not forget what Jesus told Nichodemus.
Includes none of the above.

M-Bob

The gospel has many facets ...

In John 1, John says that Jesus gives the power to become the children of God to those that accept Him.

In John 3, Jesus says that you must be born again.

In John 4, Jesus says that He will give you Living Water.

In John 6, Jesus says that He is the Bread of Life for you to consume.

In John 15, Jesus says that He is the True Vine, in which we as branches are rooted.

In Matthew 11, Jesus says that we may come to Him and receive rest.

In Acts 2, Peter tells his hearers to repent, and be baptized to be saved.

A_Thinker · Jul 25, 2019

Toro said:
IF it is as you aay, to unbelievers, then why would they come to Him saying "Lord, Lord"... why would they say they did works in His name... IF that verse is as you say... directed at non Christians?

It's judgement time ... it's now or never ...

A_Thinker · Jul 25, 2019

Toro said:
One is saved IF they do the will of the Father.

And what is the will of the Father ?

John 6

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8 · Jul 25, 2019

Toro said:
IF it is as you aay, to unbelievers, then why would they come to Him saying "Lord, Lord"... why would they say they did works in His name... IF that verse is as you say... directed at non Christians?

Matthew 7:21-23

One is saved IF they do the will of the Father.

How does one know if they are saved or delusional?

Romans 8:16

You know you are not deliusional when His Spirit testifies with your spirit that you are children of God....

How do uou know it is not delusional... when you have fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23

iLearn · Jul 25, 2019

when you don't fear death anymore.
when you don't fear hell.
but you love God and you love righteousness and the hate toward sin is growing.

Romans 8 · Jul 25, 2019

Halbhh said:
Yes, it's such a wonderful verse.

You know though, the verse says "will be saved" which is a future event, whereas you wrote the commonplace idea "saved" which is a past tense thing.

If I say, if one jumps off the empire state building and hits the ground he will die, is the act of dying after he hits the ground past, present, or future tense?

It doesn't say one will be saved after one's death. It says if ones confesses, he will be saved. There is no other condition listed which need be met.

A Catholic friend has a saying "I'm saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved .

This does fit perfectly with Paul's way of variously talking of more than one tense, past and future.

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3 NIV

So, we have Life, now, yet we also have to "run the race to the end".

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
https://biblehub.com/esv/1_corinthians/9.htm

Wow, it's really striking that last sentence -- "I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." !

That kinda puts a definite sense of responsibility (for our smaller part, to go with His bigger part) onto Romans chapter 8, that we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh -- it involves our own willingness to choose to follow Him, and repent when we stumble. Even to this level: "I discipline my body and keep it under control"

Or as I sometimes think of it: that like a child I take His hand, and not refuse to move my legs, but toddle forward, with His hand guiding.

I'll say what I said to your "works" counterpart. It's fine if you want to believe that if it makes you strive further. But if not, then it's fair to say you're simply a hypocrite.

Toro · Jul 25, 2019

A_Thinker said:
And what is the will of the Father ?

John 6

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The will of the Father is covered quite simply.
Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

The demons that possessed the man believed that Jesus was the Son of God... do you believe that after they were sent into the pigs that THEY centered into the Kingdom?

Believing in the saving context doesnt stop at simply knowing Him to be the Son of God, but to be changed by such truth and being willing to allow God to change the heart of a person. In order for that to happen, there must be a surrendering of ones free will. Not to be made into a robot, but to be open and allow God to work through you.

We ALL retain the ability to sin and fall away IF that is what we choose

Put simply the will of the Father is obedience, part of that obedience is to love the one whom He sent, Jesus.

How does one know if they love Him?
John 14:15

Does one who hates his brother(neighbor) love God? No.

1 John 4:20

You can take that to mean only those that you see as a brother or sister... but how do you know who will or will not be brought to the Lord in time, thus making that current unbeliever a brother or sister in time.

Did God not know from Genesis whom would be saved and who will be lost?

Toro · Jul 25, 2019

A_Thinker said:
It's judgement time ... it's now or never ...

Whos judgement? Certainly not mine.

As for Gods judgement, He saves those He saves, when He decides to do so

Romans 8 · Jul 25, 2019

Toro said:
IF it is as you aay, to unbelievers, then why would they come to Him saying "Lord, Lord"... why would they say they did works in His name... IF that verse is as you say... directed at non Christians?

The verse is talking about people whom are trusting in their own works, and not the work that Jesus did on the cross. These people are not living in Christ, but in their own self righteous pride. So although they may profess to be Christians, they are not true Christians at heart, and do not know Christ.

Toro · Jul 25, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I think that verse is in regards to people false prophets and false teachers such as Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Sid Roth, etc. These people probably believe they're serving the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. This is delusion. Does Benny Hinn cast out demons? Or, does he cast demons in?

No matter what you believe, it's good to take this verse to heart, because it will only make one desire to strive further.

Its better to take the entire Bible into context and look at it as a whole and take all of it to heart.

It is easy to look at one verse and use that verse to justify any means.

Depends who you believe, IF you want to believe Jesus Himself.... then they are still casting out demons... Luke 9:49-50 My opinion on such people matters little as God can use even those of intentional wickedness to save those that are His.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 25, 2019

A_Thinker said:
God, ... have mercy upon me, a sinner ...

A one time event is described here. The text does not say that this was a daily repeated thing that was done the rest of his life.

In fact, the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee needs to be read in balance with John 5:14, and John 8:11 where Jesus says “sin no more.” But somehow many today think Jesus meant for us to “sin less.”

Bible Highlighter · Jul 25, 2019

Romans 8 said:
The verse is talking about people whom are trusting in their own works, and not the work that Jesus did on the cross. These people are not living in Christ, but in their own self righteous pride. So although they may profess to be Christians, they are not true Christians at heart, and do not know Christ.

Come on now. This is getting ridiculous. Another poster here just said that these men were lying about their good works (even though the text does not say that); And you are saying that it was because they did not trust in the finished work of Christ. It does not say that in Matthew 7:23. Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin. It is why He did not know them even though they claimed to do good works in His name (Also see 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:4). Please. Read just read the text and believe it and do not try to enforce words into the text that are not there, friend.

Romans 8 · Jul 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
And you are saying that it was because they did trust in the finished work of Christ.

I said these people did NOT trust in the finished work of Jesus. They relied on their own works.

Swan7 · Jul 25, 2019

A_Thinker said:
John 6

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That is only part of the Father's will. This is also a prophecy that came true through Christ and also the time to come for His second coming. If you read what Toro has already posted (Deuteronomy 6:4-7, Matthew 22:37-40, Mark 12:30-31) concerning God's will, this is also another part of His will - but this one is the highest of commands, as stated in the Bible.
It's actually really cool how God has broken up pieces of treasure in His Word when we seek Him diligently.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 25, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I said these people did NOT trust in the finished work of Jesus. They relied on their own works.

Sorry. I was busy at the time. That was a typo. I meant to include the word “not”.

Anyways, I fixed it when I was proof reading it a few minutes from now. But my point still stands. Matthew 7:23 does not say specifically that they did not trust in the finished work of Christ. You have to add those words in order for it to say that.

In fact, no verse in the Bible says for us to trust in the finished work of Christ alone. It is completely made up.

Romans 8 · Jul 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Sorry. I was busy at the time. That was a typo. I meant to include the word “not”.

Anyways, I fixed it when I was proof reading it a few minutes from now. But my point still stands. Matthew 7:23 does not say specifically that they did not trust in the finished work of Christ. You have to add those words in order for it to say that.

In fact, no verse in the Bible says for us to trust in the finished work of Christ alone. It is completely made up.

I think Ephesians 2: 8-9 makes the point quite obvious...we can do nothing to get saved aside from trusting in Jesus. If you think you can buy your way in, "work" your way in, or any sort of bargaining, it won't suffice. You must have faith and faith alone friend.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 25, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I think Ephesians 2: 8-9 makes the point quite obvious...we can do nothing to get saved aside from trusting in Jesus. If you think you can buy your way in, "work" your way in, or any sort of bargaining, it won't suffice. You must have faith and faith alone friend.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes, we are initially saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the gift of God. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. But how many times are gifts received? Do you keep receiving the same gift over and over and over again? Or do you receive gifts one time? I say this because if a gift is received one time, then that means that Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation).

Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ has quickened us. How many times do you think a believer is "quickened"? Surely it must be one time, right? So again, Ephesians 2 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation). Paul says to the Ephesians that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith (Ephesians 3:17). How many times does that happen for a believer? How many times can Christ be invited to dwell in our hearts generally? Usually this is one time in most cases. So again, the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is "Initial Salvation."

Ephesians 2:9 is also talking about "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace through faith in Jesus) because it is referring to the kind of work that a person would boast in themselves in doing. Is that what you think I believe? That I boast in my own good works and seek the attention of men?

Far from it.

I believe God does the good work through the believer (Philippians 2:12) (John 15:5). This means that I believe in boasting in God for any good work He does through my life. For why else do you think the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus? It's because it was the Lord who ultimately did the good work through them (under their cooperation and surrender to the Lord of course).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a different kind of work (i.e. God directed works done through the believer or Sanctification). For verse 10 mentions that these are the kind of works that a believer is created to do in Christ Jesus since the foundation of the world. These are the kind of works that follow God's saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul is sort of saying,
"Do not put the cart before the horse."

I say this because Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen us to salvation by two things:

#1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification (Holy Living via the Spirit - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Paul says that if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die, but if they put to death the deeds of the body (sin), they will live (Romans 8:13).

Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Jesus defines loving Him as keeping His commandments.

Romans 8 · Jul 26, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, we are initially saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the gift of God. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. But how many times are gifts received? Do you keep receiving the same gift over and over and over again? Or do you receive gifts one time? I say this because if a gift is received one time, then that means that Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation).

Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ has quickened us. How many times do you think a believer is "quickened"? Surely it must be one time, right? So again, Ephesians 2 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation). Paul says to the Ephesians that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith (Ephesians 3:17). How many times does that happen for a believer? How many times can Christ be invited to dwell in our hearts generally? Usually this is one time in most cases. So again, the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is "Initial Salvation."

Ephesians 2:9 is also talking about "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace through faith in Jesus) because it is referring to the kind of work that a person would boast in themselves in doing. Is that what you think I believe? That I boast in my own good works and seek the attention of men?

Far from it.

I believe God does the good work through the believer (Philippians 2:12) (John 15:5). This means that I believe in boasting in God for any good work He does through my life. For why else do you think the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus? It's because it was the Lord who ultimately did the good work through them (under their cooperation and surrender to the Lord of course).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a different kind of work (i.e. God directed works done through the believer or Sanctification). For verse 10 mentions that these are the kind of works that a believer is created to do in Christ Jesus since the foundation of the world. These are the kind of works that follow God's saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul is sort of saying,
"Do not put the cart before the horse."

I say this because Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen us to salvation by two things:

#1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification (Holy Living via the Spirit - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Paul says that if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die, but if they put to death the deeds of the body (sin), they will live (Romans 8:13).

Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Jesus defines loving Him as keeping His commandments.

Did you copy and paste this reply? I read it earlier in this thread, or in another one. Do you have the capacity to hold a conversation or do you just collect snippets and paste your responses? You're not the only one in the forum that does this. But in fact most of the people in the forum that communicate in this fashion share the same beliefs in work-based salvation.

It doesn't sound like you understand the difference between salvation, and regeneration. Perhaps you might investigate how these two different concepts actually work instead of pasting your comments which seem to conflate them as above.

If you can't write your own replies, people are just going to ignore you. Put in some of your own thoughts and effort sir.

Are you saved or delusional?

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