Are you saved or delusional?

Bible Highlighter said:

You don't like what Matthew 7:23 says so you are seeking to find some explanation to explain it away (no matter how remote the possibility is

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What I am doing is not discounting the FACT that Jesus tells these people plainly ... "I NEVER KNEW YOU."

You are not effectively dealing with that FACT.

And if you're going to caution me about implying that Jesus is allowing folks to believe a falsehood per His words (or lack, thereof) ... how much moreso is that the case here, for your interpretation to be correct ?

A_Thinker said:

He NEVER knew them.

If they had EVER come to Him, they would have been walking in obedience at that point (for your benefit) ... and at that point He would have KNOWN THEM.

But Jesus says He NEVER knew them. Are we to believe Him or not ?

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Not everyone preaches the same Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). You don't think it is possible that a person can be self deceived?

A_Thinker said:

What I am doing is not discounting the FACT that Jesus tells these people plainly ... "I NEVER KNEW YOU."

You are not effectively dealing with that FACT.

And if you're going to caution me about implying that Jesus is allowing folks to believe a falsehood per His words (or lack, thereof) ... how much moreso is that the case here, for your interpretation to be correct ?

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Your view goes beyond plausibility and or what the text actually says. No indication is given that they are lying. Yet, you are saying that they could be lying (Which is not something that makes any sense in this situation). The only reason (I repeat, the only reason) you are seeking this off the wall idea is because you do not like that Jesus says to these professing believers in the fact that they worked iniquity or sin. For you cannot bear the idea that Jesus would cast out believers for their working iniquity or sin. It does not jive with your view of Soteriology.

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus did not say that the rich young ruler did not obey these commands. Jesus said that he lacked one thing.

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Yes ... Jesus did not point out the young man's obvious deceit.

Or do you believe that the young man had perfectly followed the LAW up until the day that He met Jesus ?

A_Thinker said:

These are unbelievers ... why would they suddenly BELIEVE what you say here ?

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The problem is that the line of thinking you are promoting in Matthew 7:23 is not like that of a child. A child does not overthink things (and comes up with a ton of probabilities to undo what Jesus plainly said).

Bible Highlighter said:

It does not say they are unbelievers. The words of Jesus (Which are always true) say otherwise. They did things in His name. Unbelievers do not do things in His name and there is no indication (I repeat, no indication) that they were lying. You can add to God's Word and say that they may have lied, but that is not what Jesus says. Just read it, and believe it. Do not add anything to what Jesus said.

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The text doesn't identify them as believers.

It identifies them as workers of iniquity ... who Jesus NEVER KNEW.

Consider Simon the sorcerer ...

Bible Highlighter said:

Not everyone preaches the same Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). You don't think it is possible that a person can be self deceived?

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I think that they are deceived ... but not as believers ....

A_Thinker said:

Yes ... Jesus did not point out the young man's obvious deceit.

Or do you believe that the young man had perfectly followed the LAW up until the day that He met Jesus ?

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Jesus said he lacked ONE thing. Do you believe Jesus when He said this?

Also, what do you make of Zacharias and Elisabeth?

5 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
(Luke 1:5-6).

A_Thinker said:

The text doesn't identify them as believers.

It identifies them as workers of iniquity ... who Jesus NEVER KNEW.

Consider Simon the sorcerer ...

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It says they cast out demons in his name. A house divided cannot stand.

Bible Highlighter said:

The problem is that the line of thinking you are promoting in Matthew 7:23 is not like that of a child. A child does not overthink things (and comes up with a ton of probabilities to undo what Jesus plainly said).

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The plainest thing that Jesus said in that passage was "I NEVER KNEW YOU."

You have yet to offer a viable explanation of why Jesus doesn't mean EXACTLY what He says there ...

A_Thinker said:

I think that they are deceived ... but not as believers ....

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So you don't think somebody can believe in Jesus the wrong way?

A_Thinker said:

I think that they are deceived ... but not as believers ....

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Also, when I say that they are believers, I am not saying that they were once saved believers and they lost their salvation. I believe they never had salvation, but they simply believed in Jesus the wrong way because they did wonderful works in Jesus's name.

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus said he lacked ONE thing. Do you believe Jesus when He said this?

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Yes ... I do believe Jesus when He said He lacked one thing ...

Do you think George Sodini believed in Jesus the right way?

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote;


Do you think Jesus will say to George Sodini that he never knew Him?
Or do you think George is going to make it?

Source:
George Sodini.

Bible Highlighter said:

It says they cast out demons in his name. A house divided cannot stand.

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In truth, ... it says that they CLAIMED ... to cast out demons ...

A_Thinker said:

Yes ... I do believe Jesus when He said He lacked one thing ...

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So that means the rich young ruler kept the laws that Jesus mentioned.

A_Thinker said:

In truth, ... it says that they CLAIMED ... to cast out demons ...

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But Jesus's words are always true. If there is no indication by Jesus that they lied, and they in fact were lying, then the report of Jesus's words here would not be entirely true and they would be a lie. Jesus always speaks the truth, and He does not lie.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, when I say that they are believers, I am not saying that they were once saved believers and they lost their salvation. I believe they never had salvation, but they simply believed in Jesus the wrong way because they did wonderful works in Jesus's name.

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This is an interpretation which I'll allow for, ... because it does not explicitly contradict the text.

However, I feel that it is much more likely that these workers of iniquity ... were simply lying.

It is their nature, after all ...

nonaeroterraqueous said:

That's kind of a mean-spirited self-contradiction. If he's a Calvinist, then he can't be an atheist, but, then, few people who call themselves atheists are genuinely atheistic, when examined honestly.

Calvinism never conflicts with following Christ and taking responsibility for your own sin. It is possible that he misunderstood the subject as badly as you do. Or...he simply turned from the faith because that was his inclination, and then he blamed it on not being elect, in which case he was necessarily right. If he willingly walked away, then apparently he was not elect.

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It's his Calvinist world view not mine, and no one is denying he hasn't misunderstood something. His lyrics expose him saying "So either you aren’t real Or I am just not chosen". This shows us that despite his atheist label he still looks at God in this flawed view and because of this has rejected God regardless of how contradictory it may be. in a recent interview, he speaks of God like he was stifling his ability to get past the sin in his life and sees he is better off making the choices himself rather than wait on God to make the change in him. Stuff like a 20 yr addiction with inappropriate contentography that in his view God didn't empower him to overcome, now abandoning God he has found victory in these habitual sins by making the choices that he determines is best for himself.

He has willingly walked away from the result of his battle with sin that he was unable to overcome and so has judged himself unfit to be called one of the elect. Now that he has walked away, as you say yourself, "then apparently he was not elect". So now in this sort of paradoxical way he has abandoned God because either God is not real, or he is destined for failure and he seems to have picked the option that works best for him in this flawed world view vacuum.

A_Thinker said:

This is an interpretation which I'll allow for, ... because it does not explicitly contradict the text.

However, I feel that it is much more likely that these workers of iniquity ... were simply lying ...

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But it contradicts the rest of God's Word in it being trustworthy.

Jesus says, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17).

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." (John 12:49).

It contradicts the integrity of God's Word that Jesus was giving us a report of people lying when there is no indication that they lied. Jesus giving us a report of men lying and not telling us that they lied would mean that his words of their testimony are not true and that Jesus's words here cannot be entirely trusted. That's the problem with your interpretation.

If I provided a testimony of men lying (especially in a court of law, judgment), and I did not reveal that they were lying when I knew they were lying, it would make me appear to be guilty and it would make my words not entirely truthful about their testimony. Hiding the truth is one thing, but saying untruthful things is another matter. We are led to believe that they did not lie by what Jesus said. To suggest that they lied means that Jesus' words cannot be trusted here about their testimony He gave us.