Ah. Thanks for that, Radagast. First time I'd ever noticed it.
I wonder what the reasoning for that was.
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Ah. Thanks for that, Radagast. First time I'd ever noticed it.
I wonder what the reasoning for that was.
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I tend to let things settle before I respond... Also I have other issues that demand my attention.
You have consolidated my thoughts, thank you.
Did you get to read beyond #68??
It worry's me that modern church seems so self focussed and pouring energy into its vision rather than supporting the callings of its adherents - that is probably a matter for another thread as well.
You will see some of my testimony here...
Jesus's Ministry
I think inner city work has consolidated my belief that we need the gifts operating because without them in that environment you wont last 5 minutes...
We had cases of short term prophesy - example we always used intercessory support and someone would see a 'vision' of a guy sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper. Sure enough when folks went out to share His word, the guy would be there and was all ears for the gospel.
On another occasion a group was worshiping casually in the city square. They were told by Him to wait for someone (they didnt know who) 30 minutes later a guy walks up to them with a big chain aver His shoulder - he was just expelled from his bike gang and was all ears for the gospel.
So we learned to learn by doing, and ended up learning much about moving in the Spirit.
We had a call to the street and as we contested the edge of the kingdom, gifts would come into play that the church knows little about because they are fighting a different battle.
You have consolidated my thoughts, thank you.
Did you get to read beyond #68??
It worry's me that modern church seems so self focussed and pouring energy into its vision rather than supporting the callings of its adherents - that is probably a matter for another thread as well.
You will see some of my testimony here...
Jesus's Ministry
I think inner city work has consolidated my belief that we need the gifts operating because without them in that environment you wont last 5 minutes...
We had cases of short term prophesy - example we always used intercessory support and someone would see a 'vision' of a guy sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper. Sure enough when folks went out to share His word, the guy would be there and was all ears for the gospel.
On another occasion a group was worshiping casually in the city square. They were told by Him to wait for someone (they didnt know who) 30 minutes later a guy walks up to them with a big chain aver His shoulder - he was just expelled from his bike gang and was all ears for the gospel.
So we learned to learn by doing, and ended up learning much about moving in the Spirit.
We had a call to the street and as we contested the edge of the kingdom, gifts would come into play that the church knows little about because they are fighting a different battle.
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topher694
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If the church's vision was to support the callings of its adherents, imagine what it could accomplish! The great examples you gave would just be the tip of the iceberg. That is a major part of our vision and what we call an apostolic vision (to raise up to send out). I firmly believe that equipping the members to fulfill their vision will always strengthen the overall vision/mission of the church itself. As long as pride and ego don't get in the way.
To bring it full circle, such a thing would require those new and growing in the prophetic to be mentored by those mature in the prophetic. And part of that mentoring process is having your prophetic utterances subject to those mature prophetic people. It's how you learn and grow.
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This is wonderful stuff. I have always mostly associated the need for prophecy with staying one step ahead of the enemy, so hearing it applied to aiding in evangelism like that is eye-opening. As far as the former, I could tell you stories about how it has protected a Christian Forum I am involved in from being overcome by severe enemy attacks, but this is something only I and management know about, so I will keep it under my hat.
This bothers me as well. I also contend rather vehemently that any form of Christianity that is not manifesting Christ in all His fullness (i.e. through supernatural gifts) is a shell of itself at best and a complete fraud at worst, as it bears no resemblance to true New Testament Christianity. This stand gets some pretty resentful reactions sometimes, but I believe the church needs to be woken up. Many churches are largely living a lie, and we support the continuation of that lie every day it goes unchallenged.
Thanks for the thread, btw. It presents something new and pro-active on the subject for a change, which is very refreshing : )
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About Post #68, I read it last night and largely agree with it. If you were asking me to respond to it, let me repost it first:
The closing statement of Point 1 is something I often say myself. In fact, I normally don't even take part in Cessationist discussions anymore because I get just as irritated with Continuationists; not that I don't agree with them, but I'm a firm believer in "Put up or shut up," and the day for simply debating the issue ad nauseam is over IMO. We need to be proving to them that the gifts are still in operation today, through visible objective proofs; prophecy posted in advance in print that comes to pass; words of knowledge posted in discussion with others online that only the Spirit of God would know about them, which get confirmed by the recipient; accurate interpretation of posted dreams and visions which are dead on, and lead to recipients confirming the accuracy of what the Spirit has said, etc.
I used to do the former here quite often, only I ran into the problem of people posting dreams that were not of God but from the enemy, and this had me potentially interpreting for the Devil; something I needless to say found unacceptable. I have since begun praying for greater discernment, but as of today I am still seeking it from God. So now I limit myself to interpreting mostly just for those I know walk closely with the Lord, or if I get a sense about a dream in particular that I should interpret.
But the days of debating the issue should be long over, IMO. We should be seeking God for the ability to PROVE it to them.
Point 2 is caused by churches not being devoted to incessant prayer, and thus not filled with the Spirit sufficiently enough for Him to swiftly and accurately sort out the good from the bad.
Point 3 is caused by the same problem: Just barely enough prophetic empowerment to give a few utterances, but not enough to counter prevailing false utterance.
Point 4 is caused primarily by a lack of prophetic revelation to start with. All interpretations of the word that are not given by the Spirit Himself are false, and there is today so much false interpretation that it makes this means of spiritual protection highly unreliable. My final conclusion as per Post #79 is that both prophecy and revelation may well fall largely under the domain of the prophets, and that pastors, teachers, evangelists would institute such revelations into their teachings thereafter should they be attested to by the congregation as having truly come from the Lord, with confirmation and abundant witness. I know this stand may be controversial, but how else is all the error going to be corrected? They are ignoring what the Spirit is saying to the churches through visions and dreams. If they were not, they might well have already corrected many of the false doctrines they still teach.
The closing statement of Point 1 is something I often say myself. In fact, I normally don't even take part in Cessationist discussions anymore because I get just as irritated with Continuationists; not that I don't agree with them, but I'm a firm believer in "Put up or shut up," and the day for simply debating the issue ad nauseam is over IMO. We need to be proving to them that the gifts are still in operation today, through visible objective proofs; prophecy posted in advance in print that comes to pass; words of knowledge posted in discussion with others online that only the Spirit of God would know about them, which get confirmed by the recipient; accurate interpretation of posted dreams and visions which are dead on, and lead to recipients confirming the accuracy of what the Spirit has said, etc.
I used to do the former here quite often, only I ran into the problem of people posting dreams that were not of God but from the enemy, and this had me potentially interpreting for the Devil; something I needless to say found unacceptable. I have since begun praying for greater discernment, but as of today I am still seeking it from God. So now I limit myself to interpreting mostly just for those I know walk closely with the Lord, or if I get a sense about a dream in particular that I should interpret.
But the days of debating the issue should be long over, IMO. We should be seeking God for the ability to PROVE it to them.
Point 2 is caused by churches not being devoted to incessant prayer, and thus not filled with the Spirit sufficiently enough for Him to swiftly and accurately sort out the good from the bad.
Point 3 is caused by the same problem: Just barely enough prophetic empowerment to give a few utterances, but not enough to counter prevailing false utterance.
Point 4 is caused primarily by a lack of prophetic revelation to start with. All interpretations of the word that are not given by the Spirit Himself are false, and there is today so much false interpretation that it makes this means of spiritual protection highly unreliable. My final conclusion as per Post #79 is that both prophecy and revelation may well fall largely under the domain of the prophets, and that pastors, teachers, evangelists would institute such revelations into their teachings thereafter should they be attested to by the congregation as having truly come from the Lord, with confirmation and abundant witness. I know this stand may be controversial, but how else is all the error going to be corrected? They are ignoring what the Spirit is saying to the churches through visions and dreams. If they were not, they might well have already corrected many of the false doctrines they still teach.
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Around 2005, Wayne Grudem, the author of a popular book on Systematic Theology shocked his Cessationist colleagues by supporting the existence and acceptability of fallible prophets in the modern church, using the Greek of Ephesians 4:11. Dan Wallace, writer of an equally popular book on Greek grammar offered the rebuttal. You may save yourself a lot of rehashing of old material/flogging of dead horses if you go through the debate.
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/Wallace-ArticleNoun-GTJ.pdf
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Thank you. I have personally been questioning the doctrine of infallibility for some time now. I believe there is such a thing as growing into the gifts, and that to judge by scriptural prophets is to base one's argument solely on those who had already fully matured. There is also the issue of those prophesied over repenting of their sins before a prophecy uttered can come to pass, which happened in Jonah's case. But it is still something I'm working through, and not dogmatic about it yet.
Your link might help.
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Thank you again. His concluding statement, "Although one cannot be dogmatic, there is a high probability that, according to Eph 4:11, all pastors are to be teachers, though not all teachers are to be pastors," is something I have always sensed might be the case, but had never vocalized it. But my opinion has always been based on personal awareness, as I function in the office of teacher on virtual auto-pilot, yet have never in my entire walk with God had the least interest or gifting for pastoring. I'd rather get a root canal once a week for the rest of my life, LoL.
But if I may ask, did you allude to this article as referencing a debate over infallibility? The piece seems to cover only noun-kai-noun constructions for the most part.
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I might mention that my late mother had a wonderful gift, she led the intercessory arm of the church. One day she went to her Pastor seeing a vision that remained in her gaze for maybe a couple of hours before fading. The Pastor was able to ask questions about detail in the vision and was getting answers that related to the future direction of the church. He was greatly blessed by this. Again if there is interest in verifying anything I speak about, just PM me for further detail.
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Basically, Cessationists have insisted that if prophets and the prophetic gift still exists, then all their output is Scripture. Since no new additions to Scripture has been forthcoming, no new prophets have arisen.Thank you again. His concluding statement, "Although one cannot be dogmatic, there is a high probability that, according to Eph 4:11, all pastors are to be teachers, though not all teachers are to be pastors," is something I have always sensed might be the case, but had never vocalized it. But my opinion has always been based on personal awareness, as I function in the office of teacher on virtual auto-pilot, yet have never in my entire walk with God had the least interest or gifting for pastoring. I'd rather get a root canal once a week for the rest of my life, LoL.
But if I may ask, did you allude to this article as referencing a debate over infallibility? The piece seems to cover only noun-kai-noun constructions for the most part.
Grudem teaches that Scripture hints at the existence of fallible prophets, giving Agabus as an example.
Gaffin and Grudem on Eph 2:20: In Defense of Gaffin's Cessationist Exegesis by R. Fowler White
Continuationism and Cessationism: An Interview with Dr. Wayne Grudem - Tim Challies
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topher694
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I like this. It is a really good way of putting it. We've always said, personal prophecy is conditional... ie the recipient has a part to play. Or another: prophecy isn't a declaration of what will happen in the future, it is a declaration of God's will for the future.
Technically there are just as many, if not more, examples of prophecy NOT coming to pass in scripture as there are of it actually happening. Someone mentioned Jonah, that's a great example. So are the children of Israel in the wilderness... the initial prophecy said they would enter the promised land... their behavior modified that prophesy... but God's will was still done either way (Cause He's a smart guy).
Again, all of this just illustrates the logic of having prophets being subject to other prophets.
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I have never seen Cessationism as anything but a human construction. Will the Two Witnesses be ungifted? I think not... No doubt however there will be a cleaver argument that accounts for their abilities without opening the box of Continuationism...
I might add that I can see the 'Fellowship of the Prophets' being 'Pan-Church' - one group in an area serving all churches that want to participate.
But going back to the basics - the gifts need a foundation on love and unity to operate in.
His word can be carried by 'the least' sometimes quite new believers.
The present structures have created a mutually loyal spiritual elite that reinforce their own outlook.
Often members of the congregation see issues way before the leadership, but the structure often will not cater for them being heard.
Somehow human control through fear, presents barriers for communication and the leaders are too busy doing 'God's work' to listen.
I might add that I can see the 'Fellowship of the Prophets' being 'Pan-Church' - one group in an area serving all churches that want to participate.
But going back to the basics - the gifts need a foundation on love and unity to operate in.
His word can be carried by 'the least' sometimes quite new believers.
The present structures have created a mutually loyal spiritual elite that reinforce their own outlook.
Often members of the congregation see issues way before the leadership, but the structure often will not cater for them being heard.
Somehow human control through fear, presents barriers for communication and the leaders are too busy doing 'God's work' to listen.
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Will do. I will eventually be producing YouTube videos going passage by passage on various epistles, with heavy emphasis on the spiritual war and the importance of walking in supernatural gifts. I may be quoting you on their use in more effective evangelism, so I appreciate the invite. There may be more you can share with me : )
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Yes, so I've heard... two dozen times or so. The problem there is if Joel 2:28 is to be fulfilled in the future and His Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh from oldest to youngest in the body of Christ - and they see visions, dream dreams, and prophecy - the amount of "scripture" that would have to be recorded would fill the Library of Congress. And then some. IMO it's a ridiculous position in practical terms, but I respect their desire to at least keep false prophets in check. There are certainly more false ones than true at the present time.
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Another great example, provided the proof is sufficient. What prophecy were you referring to specifically? (I'm assuming you already know, which might save me some time digging).
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topher694
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I'm not keen on digging for the specific reference at the moment either
, but initially God said He would bring them all out of Egypt and into the promised land... then after their complaining and bad report (minus Joshua & Caleb) He basically said because you did this I'm amending my previous word. I've preached on it before, so I know it's there.Exodus Something:Something - Something
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