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Jesus said, I will build my church, the above quoted mentality seems to indicate that regular people are building the church.
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Basis of salvation, not Jesus, the bible.
- Thread starter Gregory Thompson
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Jesus said, I will build my church, the above quoted mentality seems to indicate that regular people are building the church.
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Not really sure what your post had to do with the OP either.
It was hard to read, the energy under the words and the words didn't line up.
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aiki
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Interesting. You didn't answer my question, however. Nor did you address my point about the Church having been built by Christ long ago.
Honestly, I have no idea what "the energy under the words" means. Nor do I understand why it should line up with the words I used to make my comments.
As for being unsure about what my first post had to do with your OP, well, I can only say that if it missed the point of your OP, it may be that your OP doesn't communicate well what it is you're looking for in the responses of posters to your thread. Can you tell me how, exactly, my post failed to address the issue you raised in your OP?
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Aabbie James
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Jesus is the only acceptable object of saving faith: Jesus said it; He said it about Himself; The Apostle John quoted Jesus saying it. For it is written:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
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The Holy Spirit "reminds us of what Jesus taught", "who will teach us", and is the "Spirit of Truth", "giving us spiritual gifts (wisdom, understanding, faithfulness etc.)"
I used quotations because all that is in the Bible. Faithfulness is about the Holy Spirit helping us to persevere in the faith (which we desperately need), He teaches us and reminds us of Jesus words, alongside us.
I was reading Genesis last week but after reading a few passages the Holy Spirit had me turn to another book to read some of what Jesus said in Matthew, and then we turned to another book and passage with some more of Jesus' words and before it was over I had gone through a teaching I needed to hear, and I learned something new or put it together in a different way...
That was on a day of fasting not just a normal day, but the Holy Spirit does and can lead and teach us like that - alongside Scripture.
Scripture if you notice, preexisted the life of Christ on this earth, and He knew Scripture best, so it's totally awesome to "be reminded" of His words while reading that same Scripture, and be given understanding and be taught at the same time.
We do like to make sure we use discernment and aren't just using our own imagination or mind during Bible study because we don't want to make doctrinal errors but that's why we have people around us which can help us confirm what we are learning as Truth.
So the Bible is one weapon in our arsenal, and one that Jesus loved. He was a Rabbi, a teacher of Scripture.. He knew all the words of the Old Testament, using some of those words to defeat Satan during His time of tempting.. He also spoke a portion of the New...
We don't want to do away with what Jesus found so essential for us.. That would be sacrilege really. People used to have to go to the synagogue to hear even a passage of scripture - now it's at our fingertips night or day, it's one of the greatest gifts for HIM to have given us..
I for one, don't see it a loss because I have the Holy Spirit and that relationship with Him, but He's given me more than one weapon in my arsenal so that I live an overcomers life, and I plan on using them all..
Scripture is the words of the Father - that alone cannot be stressed enough. That deserves a level of deference; this is a Food we should desire to devour, not throw away. This is His Word to His people, it's an amazing thing. To have this alongside His Spirit is a gift the Jews of old, with circumcised hearts, would have given anything for..
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Not really, for some reason when I read your posts, they just don't make sense.
I see words with well constructed sentences, but the meaning just doesn't reach me. Apologies, still working on this.
Blessings.
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I always look at scripture as a good to have.
However, in circumstances where people do not have bibles, God can teach them through intimate contact even if they don't have bibles.
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Just using the term genuine salvation illustrates a departure from the born again and new life descriptions in the bible. So what good is it, if we depart from biblical teachings and promote the necessity of the bible?
No. However, God does not need the bible, God can save people even if a whole church generation turns apostate.
Indeed, the bible is necessary since giving signs and wonders is just so beyond us nowadays, we might as well be atheists reading a bible holding a philosophy club.
Isn't that God's job to make it clear to them?
Fruit oriented observations work just fine.
God can correct things just fine through intimate contact, the church has forgotten how to trust Him on this.
Ah good, finally sounding Christian.
That's not true, God has ways of communicating to people that does not involve the bible. The part about "the bible did not reveal" is giving the bible human characteristics, this is erroneous.
I understand why I couldn't read this at first, there's not enough faith in Jesus/trinity to get the job done at so many steps of the way, that it's just alien to me.
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He can, but certainly doesn't always. He relies on our faithful service to Him in following His command to teach the Gospel to the lost.
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aiki
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There are plenty of terms and phrases Christians use to discuss the doctrines of Scripture that don't ever appear in Scripture. Famously, the term "trinity" is never used in the Bible and yet the concept is clearly spelled-out in its pages. So, too, with the phrase "genuine salvation." The phrase itself may not be used in Scripture but the idea it conveys certainly is. All throughout the NT, one can read warnings about those who are "false brethren," or "wolves in sheeps' clothing," or "false teachers," or "tares." The apostle Paul wrote that Christians should examine themselves to see whether they were truly in the faith, implying that one could be deluded about one's spiritual state. The idea of counterfeit or false salvation, then, is quite evident in Scripture, hence my use of the phrase "genuine salvation."
In light of what I've just noted, your question about promoting the necessity of the Bible while departing from it doesn't appear to apply to my comments. Also, your response above never actually addresses my question, but sidesteps it by fussing over word choice.
And how do you know this? How do you know what God is or isn't capable of? How do you know that He has any interest at all in saving anyone? The Bible tells you so, of course. I agree with you, though, that God, in principle, does not need the Bible to save anyone. He's God and needs nothing but Himself to achieve whatever ends He desires. But, God has so ordained that His word, the Bible, is an integral part of enlightening the lost to their need of His salvation. Because He wished to, God has made the Bible vital to the knowledge and dissemination of the Gospel which is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes."
Again, this deflects the point my question made. The Bible is an important part of saving the lost because God has so ordained that it should be, not because "signs and wonders are beyond us today."
Which He has done in part through the special revelation of His word, the Bible, in which we discover the Gospel in its full and proper form.
??? Looks like another deflection of my point, here.
God can do all sorts of things that He doesn't do because He has decided to do things in one particular way. God could save people by giving them a direct deposit of His truth straight to their brain. He could also make the sky purple instead of blue, or the world without mountains or valleys, or birds with four wings instead of two. But, He didn't. That God could do things differently than He has done doesn't change the way things are.
Finally? In your opinion only.
See above.
It isn't the level of my faith in Christ that is the issue but your confused (or, perhaps, just simplistic) thinking concerning this matter.
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The issue with a thread like this is to try and 'guess' what the OP is talking about. When someone asks for clarification on what is meant, no answer is given to several questions.
The other thing that is in error is what is said above. Saying that the word of God, the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Bible, The God-breathed very words of the Creator God is not necessary for salvation & removes the role of the Holy Spirit in leading us into all THE truth is just NOT true.
Talking about only 1/2 of that verse out of its context (John 16:13) AND this verse shows all truth literally meaning 'the whole truth' which is where we got the swearing in in courts: 'Do you swear to tell the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH & nothing but the truth, so help me, God?'
John 16 context:
16:1 I have SAID ALL THESE THINGS to you to keep you from falling away.
16:4 But I have SAID THESE THINGS to you, so that when their hour comes YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT I TOLD THEM to you.
I did not SAY THESE THINGS to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
16:6 But because I have SAID THESE THINGS to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.
16:12 I still have MANY THINGS TO SAY TO YOU, but you cannot bear them now.
16:13-15 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into the whole truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak & He will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for He will take WHAT IS MINE & DECLARE IT to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine & declare it to you.
What is the truth? Jesus taught: John 17:14-17
I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.a 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
The word received from the Father, which Jesus taught & was written down, the gospel of the kingdom, is THE TRUTH. If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, He will take what Jesus taught, which came from the Father, His Word, and guide the disciples in the word of truth! He will not speak on His own authority but pass on the word of truth, the very God 'breathed out' Scriptures!
Again when disciples were leaving Jesus in John 6 because they didn't understand His teaching, Jesus asked the 12 if they were going to leave also. Simon Peter declared, '“Lord, to whom would we go? You have THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE. 69We believe & know that You are the Holy One of God.” (John 6:68,69)
James 1:1 'HE CHOSE TO GIVE US BIRTH THROUGH THE WORD OF TRUTH, so that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.'
Eph 6:16,17 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation & the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Someone already shared Romans 10:17 ('Faith comes by hearing & hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD.') & Roman 1:16 (For it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to all who have faith...for in 'it' is revealed the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish') & I Cor 2:2-4:
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.
I Cor 1:18-24 For the MESSAGE OF THE CROSS is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being SAVED IT IS THE POWER OF GOD. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was PREACHED TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
22Jews demand signs & Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ CRUCIFIED, a stumbling block to Jews & foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews & Greeks, Christ the power of God & the wisdom of God.
And what did Peter say in I Peter 1:23-25?
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the LIVING & ABIDING WORD OF GOD. For, All flesh is like grass & all its glory like the flowers of the field; the grass withers & the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
And this is THE WORD THAT WAS PREACHED TO YOU.
Luke 8:11 "Now this is the meaning of the parable: The seed is THE WORD OF GOD."
It is sown in the heart of people & when understand & received in a good heart by faith in the gospel, it germinates & grows & produces a crop, evidencing a genuine, living, faith.
Heb 4:12,13 For THE WORD OF GOD is living & active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul & spirit, of joints & marrow. It JUDGES the thoughts & intentions of the heart.
One cannot separate the Word of God from the Spirit of God concerning salvation. It IS NECESSARY & is used by the Spirit as well as the Father as well as the Son in the preaching of the gospel & being born again, regenerated by the Word of God implanted & by the power of the Spirit in the power of the gospel to save both Jew & Gentile.
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Since the OP is referring to doctrine, I am taking this as church doctrine(s) teaching put forth in an organized church setting and specifically in the realm of believers.
Could certain interpretations have an effect on ones salvation? Yes, otherwise we would not be warned about false teachings.
The bible is clear there are false teachings (false doctrines)
Regardless of where one receives biblical teachings from, each of us has the personal responsibility to study the scriptures and to determine if the teachings "are so"
Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
and knowledge will increase ...
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The prophets are to be read, but so that we ask of God the gift of interpretation, for he who is the author of the writings of the prophets, is also the interpreter of them.
He joins the Scripture and prophecy together, to distinguish true prophecies from false.
For all interpretation comes from God through His holy spirit revealing the truth through His word to the believer.
Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.”
Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
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It has nothing to do with your "level" of faith, just theological points that are anti-faith.
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Good thread everyone, always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is within you.
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I think you need to know a few things to be saved. You need to know you are a sinner and that you need Jesus to save you. I believe that's basically it, no doctrine, no other teaching is necessary. So the info could come from the Bible in letter or through tounge, through dreams or other revelation.
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HowRU?
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I didn’t realize both doctrines/examples were in the Bible. That’s interesting. You know, I get your point on the importance of the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, and being a Pentecostal I aught to. I also think it’s equally possible that it was purposely left ambiguous because the distinction doesn’t matter.
I probably hold the scripture as being more of a corrective tool God has given us than you do, and I believe it was inspired by God. Conversely, I’ve had God speak to me in numerous other creative ways that were extra biblical and profound.
I think you hit the nail on the head in suggesting that the scripture is not the problem; it’s an uninspired, carnal interpretation that leads people astray.
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I tend to have more than 10 parallel interpretations going on in my subconscious at any given moment. The English language makes it difficult to properly explain what I experience and believe, (though it is my first language) so I sometimes need to settle with illustration through contrast.
Blessings.
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Salvation is basically about how we will be judged on the Judgment Day in accordance to the New Covenant which applies to us. Our salvation starts at the point when we accepted Jesus Christ. However that's just the beginning as long as we continue to live on earth. Satan will try his best to lead us away from our salvation (that's why we pray that God leads us not into temptations but delivers us from evil).
We thus need to know better about what standards we shall follow for us to secure our salvation after the starting point. This standard is reflected in Christ's teachings and recorded in the Bible. Satan will try his best even to twist the meaning of those teachings to lead us away. That's where we need the Holy Spirit to guide us.
To put it another way, if you think that the Holy Bible is not needed then please compile a list of Christ's teachings to follow without reading the Bible. To simplify the situation, if we don't read the Bible we will be beaten by Satan. If we read the Bible but without the guidance from the Holy Spirit we will be beaten by Satan. We need to be more and more like Christ to become holy to secure our salvation. We can't do this without understanding more and more about how to be like Jesus Christ through the Holy Bible.
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