WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

Hammster · Jul 23, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Back to the OP

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Okay. And your point?

Hammster · Jul 23, 2019

Oscarr said:
There is the story about the preacher who left his note behind in the pulpit. An elder found them and saw that some parts of the sermon were underlined and had notes in the margin, like raise the hand here, speak in hushed tones there, and emphasise this or that important point.

One part of the sermon was heavily underlined in red, and in the margin it said, "SHOUT FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH - ARGUMENT VERY WEAK!"

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 23, 2019

Hammster said:
On this, we are in agreement. Let’s see what Jesus has to say.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

Does He have anything to say about those who aren’t His sheep?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:25-26

Anything else?

He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
— John 8:47

The difference between a genuine believer and a hypocrite is in the heart, where only God can see.

Both can conduct themselves, join the church, teach Sunday school, be an elder or deacon, walk and walk and talk the talk in exactly the same way. The genuine believer does it with a true heart, and the hypocrite does it from a false heart.

Most hypocrites will fall away when persecution and problems arise; and/or a leader in the church attempts to correct or discipline them. We can know what a barrel contains by kicking it. A barrel of honey will overflow with honey. A barrow of acid will splash acid on you.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 23, 2019

Hammster said:
Exactly. So there’s no losing of salvation. If you aren’t His sheep, you never hear Him, or follow.

The problem about cobbling together a number of verses of Scripture to make a point as our friend the OP has done, is to take those verses out of their context, and therefore make application of them in ways that may not have been originally intended.

The best way to understand what each verse is saying, is to do an exegesis of each one, to put it into its context as to who was it written to, why it was written, what was the speaker's intention, and how did his present listeners or readers understand it? When we do this, we get a totally different understanding of each verse, otherwise we are cutting and pasting verses said by different people, to different people, for various intentions and diverse understanding by those who first heard or read what was said in the verses.

This shows that cutting and pasting a hodge podge of different verses together to try and prove a point is just another way of making the Bible the way one wants it to say.

JIMINZ · Jul 23, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Yes, those who remain in a believing state .... however, one can fall away or completely go away from their faith ... and for them there does not remain a sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

He was speaking about the Jews which wanted to return to following the Law of Judaism, not about falling away as we understand it to be.

JIMINZ · Jul 23, 2019

LoreneDD said:
tochee ....

No tochee, she's wrong.

JIMINZ · Jul 23, 2019

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Notice how every verse you cite describes salvation as a future event?

That's what I would have asked you. If it is to be salvation from Hell and the wrath of God, then salvation is a future event. If salvation is a future event, then we cannot lose what we do not yet have. If salvation is our destiny, then we will find out when we get there.

Your answer raises the question, if we cannot lose that which we haven't had because, Salvation is a Future event, can we lose that which we do have.

2 Cor.1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Co_5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13,14
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I don't believe we can lose either one but it is a question which needs to be answered in order for some to understand what is lost, IF something can be lost at all.

JIMINZ · Jul 23, 2019

fhansen said:
We can't even know with 100% certainty whether or not our names are written in the Book of Life to begin with-that's God's territory, to know perfectly. Let alone whether or not we'll persevere.

From what you say, maybe you can't but I know where I stand IN CHRIST.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now that is assurance of Salvation.

fhansen said:
We're saved from "the sting of death", from the natural conclusion that this world is just a giant slaughterhouse at the end of the day.

1 Co 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

JIMINZ · Jul 23, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
Some people will enter the Christian community without a pure heart. They will try and follow the rules but at some point fall away. They are NOT God's children... Jesus didn't lose them, they never belonged to Him.

Is there Scripture to that effect?

Clarification is need when making a statement like that.

fhansen · Jul 23, 2019

JIMINZ said:
From what you say, maybe you can't but I know where I stand IN CHRIST.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now that is assurance of Salvation.

1 Co 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Well, we can believe whatever we prefer about ourselves, and some will be surprised I'm sure, like the sheep and the goats in Matt 25-either way only God knows for sure. In any case nothing here contradicts anything I've said about what we're saved from.

~Zao~ · Jul 24, 2019

Hazelelponi said: ↑
Some people will enter the Christian community without a pure heart. They will try and follow the rules but at some point fall away. They are NOT God's children... Jesus didn't lose them, they never belonged to Him.

JIMINZ said:
Is there Scripture to that effect?
Clarification is need when making a statement like that.

The Holy Spirit was given in 2 stages,
the breath was for understanding for the purpose of Christian living. Basic to the new creation because that was the breath of God within.
Then there was the baptism of fire that is just a cloak, which is the type of the OT. One is inner and the other outer. One for living and one for signs.

eleos1954 · Jul 24, 2019

Hammster said:
Okay. And your point?

The point is ... shrink back and are destroyed ... shrink back from what? ...
the faith .... so it's possible to have had faith and shrink back to the point of destruction.

~Zao~ · Jul 24, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The point is ... shrink back and are destroyed ... shrink back from what? ...
the faith .... so it's possible to have had faith and shrink back to the point of destruction.

The Hebrews were in danger of shrinking back from the throne of grace to follow the OC. Peter was reprimanded by Paul for shrinking back to eat kosher thereby abandoning his fellow christians in the process. His mind (nous darkened) told him to obey the old law and left his heart behind, thereby abandoning Christ’s Way for the old way. Motives were all wrong! God looks at the heart.

You can have no part or share in God’s word because your heart isn’t right with God. Therefore, change your heart and life! Turn from your wickedness! Plead with the Lord in the hope that your wicked intent can be forgiven, for I see that your bitterness has poisoned you and evil has you in chains.”

eleos1954 · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
He was speaking about the Jews which wanted to return to following the Law of Judaism, not about falling away as we understand it to be.

Faith is faith (Jew or not), in the OT people had faith in the Messiah to come .... and before there were any Jews, such as Noah

John 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebrews 10:39

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

fhansen · Jul 24, 2019

Oscarr said:
The problem about cobbling together a number of verses of Scripture to make a point as our friend the OP has done, is to take those verses out of their context, and therefore make application of them in ways that may not have been originally intended.

The best way to understand what each verse is saying, is to do an exegesis of each one, to put it into its context as to who was it written to, why it was written, what was the speaker's intention, and how did his present listeners or readers understand it? When we do this, we get a totally different understanding of each verse, otherwise we are cutting and pasting verses said by different people, to different people, for various intentions and diverse understanding by those who first heard or read what was said in the verses.

This shows that cutting and pasting a hodge podge of different verses together to try and prove a point is just another way of making the Bible the way one wants it to say.

Yes, and sheep can stray in any case, failing to keep heeding the shepherd's voice. And there's no way to predict, even for ourselves, whether or not we'll be sheep who may stray in the future and never return, or one who does return. We can't know with perfect certainty who the elect are and who they aren't, who will persevere to the end and who will not.

Hammster · Jul 24, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The point is ... shrink back and are destroyed ... shrink back from what? ...
the faith .... so it's possible to have had faith and shrink back to the point of destruction.

He said we are not those people. In other words, not a Jew who is going back to the OT sacrificial system. You have to read this stuff in context. These verses aren’t just little nuggets that stand on their own.

Hammster · Jul 24, 2019

fhansen said:
Yes, and sheep can stray in any case, failing to keep heeding the shepherd's voice. And there's no way to predict, even for ourselves, whether or not we'll be sheep who may stray in the future and never return, or one who does return. We can't know with perfect certainty who the elect are and who they aren't, who will persevere to the end and who will not.

What does a Good Shepherd do with sheep that wander? If He lets them wander away and doesn’t bring them back, can He really be called a Shepherd?

eleos1954 · Jul 24, 2019

Hammster said:
He said we are not those people. In other words, not a Jew who is going back to the OT sacrificial system. You have to read this stuff in context. These verses aren’t just little nuggets that stand on their own.

Faith is faith throughout the entire context of the bible .... whether OT or NT and isn't a "Jew thing" or a new thing. Noah was not a Jew ... he had faith.

Hebrews 11:7:

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Correct in the context of the book of Hebrews, correct in the context of the bible as a whole.

fhansen · Jul 24, 2019

Hammster said:
What does a Good Shepherd do with sheep that wander? If He lets them wander away and doesn’t bring them back, can He really be called a Shepherd?

You've already acknowledged that some who think they're elected can turn out not to be. Just as some apparently thought they were sheep in Matt 25 while being goats instead. And vice versa.

Hammster · Jul 24, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Faith is faith throughout the entire context of the bible .... whether OT or NT and isn't a "Jew thing" or a new thing. Noah was not a Jew ... he had faith.

Hebrews 11:7:

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Correct in the context of the book of Hebrews, correct in the context of the bible as a whole.

You are still missing the point.

WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

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