All predestined?

Maria Billingsley · Jul 22, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

Predestination has been misinterpreted as well as misused by certain groups. All that matters is one thing. Do you believe that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ of Nazareth to restore the relationship once lost through original sin. AND do you want to have that relationship no matter what form of persecution you will have to endure.
Beyond this, it is doctrine of men.

Blessings

charsan · Jul 22, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think we are predestined like one person is saved and one is damned. I think predestined means what God has in mind; As an example I predestined what to do with my Birthday money. I am going to buy some records and a picture Bible but I don't know which record I am going to buy, I just am going to spend the money buying records. Hopefully that makes sense

SayaOtonashi · Jul 22, 2019

So God is all knowing but when it comes to predestined God is all knowing but when it comes to the last one God predestined where we go to what we choice?

charsan · Jul 22, 2019

Is that to me? I think God predestined for salvation to happen but not who was to be saved. Salvation is open to all

Steven Beck · Jul 22, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Different covenant entirely, and a covenant to the people of God, technically they were saved by faith too. These words are not written to the unbelieving world nations. God has deliberately rendered the OC obsolete and it has been done away with 100%.

I don't think so. This passage by Ezekiel has nothing to do with Covenant but about righteousness. Righteousness comes by faith NOT by Covenant. This passage is about CHOICE and God tells us it is
our choice.

Peter J Barban · Jul 22, 2019

bling said:
I explained: The verse: Ro. 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction, does not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter: “clay pigeons”, no potter of that time made clay pigeons). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality and would have the potter’s mark. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group by becoming damaged and unworthy of the potter’s mark, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. There are vessels God does develop a great wrath against and will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction, since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed. As Paul says in 2 Tim 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

The vessels themselves can change over time.

Why would God need to make “clay pigeons”?

Can vessels themselves change over time according to Paul?

Do we all not start out as common vessels today?

You have left the realm of Bible study and are now just theory crafting. You can make up any story you want to justify your assumptions.

However, God says he chose one twin and rejected the other before they were born. Both were created by the potter, one for mercy and one for wrath. There is nothing in this text about being damaged.

Deal with the facts!

Peter J Barban · Jul 23, 2019

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God chose us before we chose him.

1. As Jesus told his disciples in John 15:
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you...

2. Likewise, Paul explains that God chose us to be in Christ. Basically, God chose the losers of the world to shame the winners.

1 Corinthians 1
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

tturt · Jul 23, 2019

Agree. I don't understand why this seems to concern some. He choose us then whosoever can agree to His plan. He knows who is going to accept His son.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Rom 8;29

"Unlike the former high priests, he is not compelled to offer daily sacrifices. They had to bring a sacrifice first for their own sins, then for the sins of the people, but he finished the sacrificial system, once and for all, when he offered himself."

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Peter J Barban · Jul 23, 2019

tturt said:
Agree. I don't understand why this seems to concern some. He choose us then whosoever can agree to His plan.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Rom 8;29

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

It is a big deal for some because their egos won't accept that they have no control, agency, or sovereignty over their lives. They desire to be the master of their fate and the captain of their soul.

For others, they cannot accept that they are saved by grace. Therefore they believe that God saved them because they chose Him, that their faith in the gospel made them worthy to be saved, while those who perish are unworthy. (This is not hypothetical, I have talked in depth with a knowledgeable Christian of seemingly good character who believes this.)

Still, others believe that God's seemingly arbitrary use of grace is unfair. God cannot, in fairness, choose winners and losers before the game is played. They feel survivors guilt over their seemingly random salvation.

It is always feelings first, Bible second.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2019

Steven Beck said:
I don't think so. This passage by Ezekiel has nothing to do with Covenant but about righteousness. Righteousness comes by faith NOT by Covenant. This passage is about CHOICE and God tells us it is
our choice.

It is written to the people who were under covenant with God in the OT, and this covenant we are in now works entirely different than that one. In the NC God writes in his peoples minds and hearts His laws. So if people are not following Christ, walking as he walked, and practice sinning, they likely are not one of His sheep. Galatians 5:19-21
God declares forcefully, that He will be their God, and they will be His people.
Those God foreknew, He predestined, Those He predestined He called, Those He called, He justified, those He justified He glorified.
If righteousness from God were obtainable by keeping the law, then Christ died in vain.

The OC ways have vanished away and been obsoleted by God.
And are no longer in effect.
Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2019

The Bible has both predestination of the elect to salvation and that anyone can lose salvation. How do we understand that? Some go with verses that seem to say that true Christians never can fall away, others go with verses that seem to say that predestination is not to salvation or not of the individual. I think we can argue back and forward, in the end it comes down to knowing God. By knowing Him personally, we get a clearer understanding of Gods plan for mankind.

Hawkins · Jul 23, 2019

We need to first admit that no one may actually understand what predestination is and how God does it.

God knows from the very beginning before creation about who we are. He knows His sheep from the very beginning even before creation. However, "God knows" itself is not a justification. He needs to set an open standard followed by a final judgment in order to legitimately bring His sheep to Heaven. The standard is a covenant applicable to us. A covenant is to serve the purpose of telling apart His sheep from the wicked, or the wheat from the weeds.

The question remains is how long it takes for a Christian to be identified from a unbeliever by applying a covenant? Both are sinners in terms of God's Law. It may take forever! Christians thus need a fate for them to be shown as the saved when measured by a covenant within an average human life span. This is what predestination is. God has predestined a fate for Christians to show who they are during the short time they live on earth. Without such a predestination, there may not be enough time for the distinguishing to effectively occur to all His sheep.

Predestination means we Christians have a fate to follow where we will encounter a predefined set of choices through which who we are will be openly demonstrated. This is generally what it is and how it applies to Christians.

For that matter we can't say that God predestined the wicked to hell, as predestination generally applies to Christians only in terms of showing who we are.

bling · Jul 24, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
You have left the realm of Bible study and are now just theory crafting. You can make up any story you want to justify your assumptions.

However, God says he chose one twin and rejected the other before they were born. Both were created by the potter, one for mercy and one for wrath. There is nothing in this text about being damaged.

Deal with the facts!

Ro. 9 did not say: "...one for mercy and one for wrath" Look up the Greek word and How Paul used those words in a similar description in 2Tim.2. The word says conveys the idea of one vessel for a special purpose and one vessel for a common purpose.

Specifically talking about Jacob and Esau:
When Deity uses the word "hate" can you still Love and hate the same person like Jesus taught us to Love and hate our own family?
Esau was not born with a personality God could work with and I am sure God would hate that fact, but does that mean Esau could not be saved in the end and be in heaven?
Could God both hate and Love Esau?
Read the who story, Jacob started out wicked (someone I would not want to be around) while Esau was Loved by his father, good guy and fun to be around. Esau repented in the end and seemed to Love his brother Jacob. So how can you say for certain he went to hell?

bling · Jul 24, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God chose us before we chose him.

1. As Jesus told his disciples in John 15:
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you...

2. Likewise, Paul explains that God chose us to be in Christ. Basically, God chose the losers of the world to shame the winners.

1 Corinthians 1
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

It does not say: “God chose the losers of the world to shame the winners.”, but God did choose wimps, those who give up, and those weaklings who surrender to be His choose children, but it is dependent on their giving up.

The choice of God’s elect was God’s choice but it was those who will surrender.

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2019

bling said:
Ro. 9 did not say: "...one for mercy and one for wrath" Look up the Greek word and How Paul used those words in a similar description in 2Tim.2. The word says conveys the idea of one vessel for a special purpose and one vessel for a common purpose.

Specifically talking about Jacob and Esau:
When Deity uses the word "hate" can you still Love and hate the same person like Jesus taught us to Love and hate our own family?
Esau was not born with a personality God could work with and I am sure God would hate that fact, but does that mean Esau could not be saved in the end and be in heaven?
Could God both hate and Love Esau?
Read the who story, Jacob started out wicked (someone I would not want to be around) while Esau was Loved by his father, good guy and fun to be around. Esau repented in the end and seemed to Love his brother Jacob. So how can you say for certain he went to hell?

Esau's progeny though God destroyed to the last man woman child, all were destroyed.
They were cut off from living memory.
So in the OT this conveys the idea of losing their inheritance from God and man. God made a complete end of him. In the OT exist the concept of dedicated to the Lord for destruction, which seems to have been his fate. You see this in v21 where Esau's kingdom is taken to be the Lords after every single one of Esau's descendants is destroyed.
Honestly Jacob and Esau represents how God deals with humanity, one had the calling of God on him even though he was sneaky, this shows God 's mercy to the despised. And the other the proud and haughty who care nothing for God, Esau was a profane man, He lays them low into the dust.

Jeremiah 49:10 But I have made Esau bare; I have uncovered his secret places, And he shall not be able to hide himself. His descendants are plundered, His brethren and his neighbors, And he is no more.

Obadiah 1:9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau May be cut off by slaughter.
Obadiah 1:18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken.
Obadiah 1:21 Then saviors shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

Hebrews 12:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Its good to see what profane means.
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
relating or devoted to that which is not sacred or biblical; secular rather than religious.
"a talk that tackled topics both sacred and profane"
synonyms: secular, lay, nonreligious, nonchurch, temporal, worldly, earthly; More
2.
(of a person or their behavior) not respectful of orthodox religious practice; irreverent.
"desecration of the temple by profane adolescents"
synonyms: irreverent, ungodly, godless, impious, disrespectful, irreligious, unbelieving, disbelieving, sacrilegious, idolatrous
"a profane, unprincipled man"
verb
1.
treat (something sacred) with irreverence or disrespect.
"it was a serious matter to profane a tomb"
synonyms: desecrate, violate, defile, treat with disrespect, debase, degrade, contaminate, pollute, taint
"it was a serious matter to profane a tomb"

Peter J Barban · Jul 24, 2019

bling said:
It does not say: “God chose the losers of the world to shame the winners.”, but God did choose wimps, those who give up, and those weaklings who surrender to be His choose children, but it is dependent on their giving up.

The choice of God’s elect was God’s choice but it was those who will surrender.

You are so wrong that any who listen to you will be infected by your wrongness. You have a communicable error.

bling · Jul 24, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
It is a big deal for some because their egos won't accept that they have no control, agency, or sovereignty over their lives. They desire to be the master of their fate and the captain of their soul.

For others, they cannot accept that they are saved by grace. Therefore they believe that God saved them because they chose Him, that their faith in the gospel made them worthy to be saved, while those who perish are unworthy. (This is not hypothetical, I have talked in depth with a knowledgeable Christian of seemingly good character who believes this.)

Still, others believe that God's seemingly arbitrary use of grace is unfair. God cannot, in fairness, choose winners and losers before the game is played. They feel survivors guilt over their seemingly random salvation.

It is always feelings first, Bible second.

That is a strawman description of the situation and really an opposite description of what is really taking place. The mature adult unbelieving sinner does start out wanting to control his own destiny, but they continue to spiral down into the pigsty of their life. Along the way their own poor choices bring them to their senses and they can see where they are heading, if they try to stay in control, but even with that they can be macho, self-willed and continue on. They can also decide to give up, wimp out and surrender to their makers control, but since they feel they deserve to be tortured for previous war crimes, should go to hell and the fact they still hate God; to makes the choice to surrender to their enemy is difficult, but they are poor baggers.

Yes! God being arbitrary is unfair and against the way God describes Himself.

Why could God not choose to save those who will humbly accept His charity and charity?

Why would you not feel survivor’s guilt if it was random?

bling · Jul 24, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Esau's progeny though God destroyed to the last man woman child, all were destroyed.
They were cut off from living memory.
So in the OT this conveys the idea of losing their inheritance from God and man. God made a complete end of him. In the OT exist the concept of dedicated to the Lord for destruction, which seems to have been his fate. You see this in v21 where Esau's kingdom is taken to be the Lords after every single one of Esau's descendants is destroyed.
Honestly Jacob and Esau represents how God deals with humanity, one had the calling of God on him even though he was sneaky, this shows God 's mercy to the despised. And the other the proud and haughty who care nothing for God, Esau was a profane man, He lays them low into the dust.

Jeremiah 49:10 But I have made Esau bare; I have uncovered his secret places, And he shall not be able to hide himself. His descendants are plundered, His brethren and his neighbors, And he is no more.

Obadiah 1:9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau May be cut off by slaughter.
Obadiah 1:18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken.
Obadiah 1:21 Then saviors shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

Hebrews 12:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Its good to see what profane means.
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
relating or devoted to that which is not sacred or biblical; secular rather than religious.
"a talk that tackled topics both sacred and profane"
synonyms: secular, lay, nonreligious, nonchurch, temporal, worldly, earthly; More
2.
(of a person or their behavior) not respectful of orthodox religious practice; irreverent.
"desecration of the temple by profane adolescents"
synonyms: irreverent, ungodly, godless, impious, disrespectful, irreligious, unbelieving, disbelieving, sacrilegious, idolatrous
"a profane, unprincipled man"
verb
1.
treat (something sacred) with irreverence or disrespect.
"it was a serious matter to profane a tomb"
synonyms: desecrate, violate, defile, treat with disrespect, debase, degrade, contaminate, pollute, taint
"it was a serious matter to profane a tomb"

I have read all that and similar things God promised about a majority of the Jews so was that Jacob's fault?
Where does it say Esau went to hell?

Peter J Barban · Jul 24, 2019

bling said:
Ro. 9 did not say: "...one for mercy and one for wrath" Look up the Greek word and How Paul used those words in a similar description in 2Tim.2. The word says conveys the idea of one vessel for a special purpose and one vessel for a common purpose.

Specifically talking about Jacob and Esau:
When Deity uses the word "hate" can you still Love and hate the same person like Jesus taught us to Love and hate our own family?
Esau was not born with a personality God could work with and I am sure God would hate that fact, but does that mean Esau could not be saved in the end and be in heaven?
Could God both hate and Love Esau?
Read the who story, Jacob started out wicked (someone I would not want to be around) while Esau was Loved by his father, good guy and fun to be around. Esau repented in the end and seemed to Love his brother Jacob. So how can you say for certain he went to hell?

You are just making up stuff again.

Fact: God rejected Esau before he was born.
Fact: God chose Jacob before he was born.
Fact: God creates some vessels to be filled with wrath.
Fact: God creates some vessels to be filled with mercy.
Fact: This is "in order that God’s purpose in election might stand".

sdowney717 · Jul 24, 2019

bling said:
I have read all that and similar things God promised about a majority of the Jews so was that Jacob's fault?
Where does it say Esau went to hell?

He was unable to repent.
Esau fell short of the grace of God, scripture shows him as an example of that, so by inference Esau did not go to heaven, and there is only one other place to go.

You may have enjoyed some aspects of Esau at first if you had known him, but you would eventually have been worn down by Esau as was his parents and family.

Hebrews 12:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

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