Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
So, you asking us for scriptures or for God to say that it's perfectly OK to sin and it's just fine, and all perfectly alright...?

Well, your not going to get it... Cause He or God's Word would never say that... but the "Whole Bible" clearly says that all are sinners and will sin, and are in and under sin in this life, and tells them that there is a way to be saved, and that that way is not by your own will or works in being completely sinless, ect, not the new way in the NT anyway, cause that is the Old way, that was never given for anyone to live up to or keep perfectly except Jesus alone... No one else ever did ever, and no one else can ever, and no one else will ever... So, there must be "another way to be saved, which is forgiveness through faith and "right believing" and Grace and Mercy and Love, ect, in the NC, NT, ect, or which is Christ...

If no one can sin and still be saved, then none, except Jesus Christ or God Himself alone is or can be saved...

The "entire NT taken in it's entirety" explains "just how a person can still sin and be saved"... but it is not ever going to say or tell you that sin is all, all perfectly OK, or alright, or fully permissible, ect, either... Except that it (sin) is (permissible) under "certain circumstances", circumstances that are explained fully in the NT, under the NC with Christ... Circumstances that people like you are not under or in, but we are...

To "explain that" takes "whole books", not just cherry picked scriptures or a list of scriptures taken out of their context and twisted into what one with an opposite agenda would want them to say, that is not actually what they mean or are meant to say...

Anyone, any idiot/monkey, ect, can do that... to say "anything they want any of it to mean" or say... and it's not right at all and is sin and is great sin and is sinning greatly... It's "blasphemy" of the most greatest and at the same time the most subtle kind, that only appeals to the most gullible and most ignorant kind of people... Whom they lead astray away from the true Gospel, ect... In this case trying to take them back to Law or the OC... which is the enemy of the NC (and Christ) under the NC and under Grace...

God Bless!

Again, you are off topic by not providing at least 10 verses to prove how a believer can sin and still be saved. So I ask you kindly to please stop posting in an off topic manner. If you want to discuss things on your own terms, please start another thread.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

Neogaia777 · Jul 23, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
So, you asking us for scriptures or for God to say that it's perfectly OK to sin and it's just fine, and all perfectly alright...?

Well, your not going to get it... Cause He or God's Word would never say that... but the "Whole Bible" clearly says that all are sinners and will sin, and are in and under sin in this life, and tells them that there is a way to be saved, and that that way is not by your own will or works in being completely sinless, ect, not the new way in the NT anyway, cause that is the Old way, that was never given for anyone to live up to or keep perfectly except Jesus alone... No one else ever did ever, and no one else can ever, and no one else will ever... So, there must be "another way to be saved, which is forgiveness through faith and "right believing" and Grace and Mercy and Love, ect, in the NC, NT, ect, or which is Christ...

If no one can sin and still be saved, then none, except Jesus Christ or God Himself alone is or can be saved...

The "entire NT taken in it's entirety" explains "just how a person can still sin and be saved"... but it is not ever going to say or tell you that sin is all, all perfectly OK, or alright, or fully permissible, ect, either... Except that it (sin) is (permissible) under "certain circumstances", circumstances that are explained fully in the NT, under the NC with Christ... Circumstances that people like you are not under or in, but we are...

To "explain that" takes "whole books", not just cherry picked scriptures or a list of scriptures taken out of their context and twisted into what one with an opposite agenda would want them to say, that is not actually what they mean or are meant to say...

Anyone, any idiot/monkey, ect, can do that... to say "anything they want any of it to mean" or say... and it's not right at all and is sin and is great sin and is sinning greatly... It's "blasphemy" of the most greatest and at the same time the most subtle kind, that only appeals to the most gullible and most ignorant kind of people... Whom they lead astray away from the true Gospel, ect... In this case trying to take them back to Law or the OC... which is the enemy of the NC (and Christ) under the NC and under Grace...

God Bless!

And, it's not going to tell you that sin or some sin in your life is not a possible "risk" to your salvation either, because it most certainly can be sometimes, especially under the OC... but, it also says that it (sin) "doesn't have to be" if one is "truly", "Truly" now, is under the NC of Grace, Mercy, Love, ect, with Christ, and that "that" is the only time it (sin) might not be or doesn't have to be, ect, (a possible risk to your salvation), ect...

But if your gonna operate under the OC, then you have to be perfect, or you will not ever be saved... But, "BUT", is "not so" if one is truly, truly truly, is under the NC with Christ... But if they are not (under the NC), then they/you/me must be perfect and perfect our whole lives, unless they truly are (under the NC and the Old with Christ), cause then, it is different, ect...

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

A_Thinker said:
1. I think a viable question is ... what is required in the pursuit of "keeping Jesus' commandments" ?

Well, the signature that is at the bottom of each of my posts should hopefully give you a clue as a part of what is required. But again, nobody can obey the Lord Jesus without first being forgiven of their past sin (Which happens when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior), and all good works a believer does is God doing the good work through a believer's life (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5). A believer cannot take credit for doing good works and boast in themselves (Which is a wrong view of works that is expressed in Ephesians 2:9).

You said:
2. I think that we should note that Judas is an outlier. On the one hand, he was only 1 out of 12 of Jesus' disciples, ... and on the other hand, ... he was the prophesied "son of perdition".

The Scriptures say that Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25).
So Judas was once saved, and then he lost it by his transgression.

A good thread that covers some good ground on this topic is here:

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

You said:
3. And, in regard to this passage you cited ...

It says we deny Jesus before men, He will deny us before the Father.

... you do realize that is exactly what Peter did, right ?

Peter did not continue to keep denying Jesus until the day he died. Also, Peter denied Jesus without the Holy Spirit living on the inside of him yet. Peter needed to seek forgiveness with the Lord over this in order to be restored back to a saving faith.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
And, it's not going to tell you that sin or some sin in your life is not a possible "risk" to your salvation either, because it most certainly can be sometimes, especially under the OC... but, it also says that it (sin) "doesn't have to be" if one is "truly", "Truly" now, is under the NC of Grace, Mercy, Love, ect, with Christ, and that "that" is the only time it (sin) might not be or doesn't have to be, ect, (a possible risk to your salvation), ect...

But if your gonna operate under the OC, then you have to be perfect, or you will not ever be saved... But, "BUT", is "not so" if one is truly, truly truly, is under the NC with Christ... But if they are not (under the NC), then they/you/me must be perfect and perfect our whole lives, unless they truly are (under the NC and the Old with Christ), cause then, it is different, ect...

God Bless!

Please stop posting in this thread in an off topic manner.

Neogaia777 · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you are off topic by not providing at least 10 verses to prove how a believer can sin and still be saved. So I ask you kindly to please stop posting in an off topic manner. If you want to discuss things on your own terms, please start another thread.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

It's not "off topic" at all, I'm actually addressing the "topic" directly, and head on...

I'm just not providing the list of "ten scriptures" that you want, (which would be taken out of their context anyway BTW) (which is not something I like to do anyway because it is or can be used to be deceiving and to be deceptive)... Anyway, I'm just not providing the list of ten scriptures or more that you want, which is not against any of the forum rules BTW...

So, deal with it...

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

A_Thinker said:
How would you respond to Jesus' teaching here ...

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

John 5:24 not only says to believe on him, but it also says: "he that hears my word."
Hearing his word is obeying His word. How so? Well, if you were to read verse 14, Jesus tells a man: "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14).

If you were to read verse 29, it says:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29).

Not sure if you caught what it said here in verse 29, but it says they that have done good will come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation.

Believers are not exempt in doing evil.

For in Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin).

Matthew 7:26-27 confirms this truth in the fact that the person who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

mmksparbud · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Important Note 1:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case. Thank you.

Important Note 2:

Please keep in mind that I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so (before they can offer any kind of debate). Thanks.

Important Note 3:

Please no posting of just one or two verses. Please provide a good number of verses that show that a believer can intentionally set out to sin again with the thinking they are saved while doing so. Thank you.

I have asked this question myself several times and have never gotten an answer and I only ask for one verse. There is no verse that says one can be an unrepentant sinner and still be saved. We all sin, and that is what Jesus is for, to forgive us--part of repenting is to turn away from that sin. If you keep on sinning the same thing over and over--you have not repented.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Jesus sacrifice will mean nothing to the individual who keeps on willfully sinning.

A_Thinker · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Peter did not continue to keep denying Jesus until the day he died.

That would be a different matter ... but it's also more narrow than the premise of your OP ...

A_Thinker · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The Scriptures say that Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25).
So Judas was once saved, and then he lost it by his transgression.

Jesus said that He knew Judas was a devil by the 6th chapter of John ... and implied that His soon betrayer did not believe ...

John 6

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Neogaia777 · Jul 23, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I have asked this question myself several times and have never gotten an answer and I only ask for one verse. There is no verse that says one can be an unrepentant sinner and still be saved. We all sin, and that is what Jesus is for, to forgive us--part of repenting is to turn away from that sin. If you keep on sinning the same thing over and over--you have not repented.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Jesus sacrifice will mean nothing to the individual who keeps on willfully sinning.

Who is the judge of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning", (and I would ask you to "define" that)... Anyway... Just "who is the judge" of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning" before they cross that line into not being able to be saved anymore...?

Is it a "risk"...? Yes, it can be... but only God is the judge... and really, only God alone "can truly even know" also, of just how long one can keep on, supposedly "willfully", "sinning", to the point to where there is no coming back or they cannot be saved anymore or any longer, right...?

So, just who are we to do so...?

God Bless!

Kaon · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Important Note 1:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case. Thank you.

Important Note 2:

Please keep in mind that I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so (before they can offer any kind of debate). Thanks.

Important Note 3:

Please no posting of just one or two verses. Please provide a good number of verses (at least 10 verses) to show that a believer can intentionally set out to sin again with the thinking they are saved while doing so. Thank you.

Depending on what you follow, who you listen to, and what set of rules you think are in place now, a range of arguments can support a range of sin that one can willfully do (and believe one will be saved).

Christians, for example, know that lies are a sin - but what about white lies, especially perpetual white lies?

Hammster · Jul 23, 2019

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
— John 3:16

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
— John 11:25-26

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
— John 5:24

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
— Titus 3:5-7

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:4-8

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 8:1

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
— Jude 24-25

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
— Philippians 1:6

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

A_Thinker said:
Jesus said that He knew Judas was a devil by the 6th chapter of John ... and implied that His soon betrayer did not believe ...

John 6

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Judas is a whole another thread discussion. But three quick verses that make it obvious he was once saved and lost it, is:

"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." (Psalms 41:9).

Christ referred to Psalms 41:9 in regards to Judas going against him in John 13:

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." (John 13:8).

Also, Jesus said that Judas was one of his sheep.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves... (Matthew 10:16).

Kaon · Jul 23, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
Who is the judge of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning", (and I would ask you to "define" that)... Anyway... Just "who is the judge" of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning" before they cross that line into not being able to be saved anymore...?

Is it a "risk"...? Yes, it can be... but only God is the judge... and really, only God alone "can truly even know" also, of just how long one can keep on, supposedly "willfully", "sinning", to the point to where there is no coming back or they cannot be saved anymore or any longer, right...?

So, just who are we to do so...?

God Bless!

You definitely cant tell a sovereign human under the plan of the Most High God how many "mess-ups" s/he is allowed to do, or even how many intentional "mess-ups" they are allowed to do.

What earthly parent will allow another person (even their own family) to tell them how to raise their child, and how hard/soft they should be on their child? Parents know each child is an individual, and one child may need more time to get it right than the other.

The story of the prodigal son usually focuses on the prodigal son, but I think an arguably bigger lesson is to look at the "good son" that did everything he was supposed to do and felt he was never celebrated - while the prodigal son purposefully lived lavishly, and when he came back he was forgiven. That decision to accept the prodigal son was up to the father, not the son(s).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

Kaon said:
Depending on what you follow, who you listen to, and what set of rules you think are in place now, a range of arguments can support a range of sin that one can willfully do (and believe one will be saved).

Christians, for example, know that lies are a sin - but what about white lies, especially perpetual white lies?

I believe all form of lying is wrong. But you would have to prove your case biblically in another thread that this is not so. I am aware of story of Rahab, and have discussed that issue before. But that is another topic of discussion for another thread. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Does it mention anything about how other kinds of lying is okay? Well, please lets stick to the topic at hand. If you believe that a saint can intentionally set out to sin and be saved while doing so, then please bring forth at least 10 verses or 10 points with Scripture to prove your case. Thank you.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

Kaon said:
You definitely cant tell a sovereign human under the plan of the Most High God how many "mess-ups" s/he is allowed to do, or even how many intentional "mess-ups" they are allowed to do.

What earthly parent will allow another person (even their own family) to tell them how to raise their child, and how hard/soft they should be on their child? Parents know each child is an individual, and one child may need more time to get it right than the other.

The story of the prodigal son usually focuses on the prodigal son, but I think an arguably bigger lesson is to look at the "good son" that did everything he was supposed to do and felt he was never celebrated - while the prodigal son purposefully lived lavishly, and when he came back he was forgiven. That decision to accept the prodigal son was up to the father, not the son(s).

I am not talking about a believer honestly stumbling on their road to recovery in overcoming grievous sin (like lying, hating, stealing, lusting, etc.).

Neogaia777 · Jul 23, 2019

Is a person who is addicted to a chemical or chemical substance "willfully sinning"...? or not...?

And did you know that all sin, all manner of bad behavior, sinful behavior, ect, is due to ones having a chemical addiction or being chemically addicted in the brain...?

So, are they "willfully sinning"...? Or not...?

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2019

Hammster said:
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
— John 3:16

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
— John 11:25-26

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
— John 5:24

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
— Titus 3:5-7

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:4-8

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 8:1

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
— Jude 24-25

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
— Philippians 1:6

Thanks for posting the verses, Hammster.
I will try to address these verses at a later date.
I am taking a break for a little while.

Blessings to you in the Lord.

mmksparbud · Jul 23, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
Who is the judge of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning", (and I would ask you to "define" that)... Anyway... Just "who is the judge" of/on how long one can keep on "willfully sinning" before they cross that line into not being able to be saved anymore...?

Is it a "risk"...? Yes, it can be... but only God is the judge... and really, only God alone "can truly even know" also, of just how long one can keep on, supposedly "willfully", "sinning", to the point to where there is no coming back or they cannot be saved anymore or any longer, right...?

So, just who are we to do so...?

God Bless!

Obviously God has the last word---go ahead and try to argue with Him. The verse doesn't say anything other than:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If you want to try and see how far you can string God along---be my guest.

Kaon · Jul 23, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not talking about a believer honestly stumbling on their road to recovery in overcoming grievous sin (like lying, hating, stealing, lusting, etc.).

Me either.

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Old Soul

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Old Soul

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Old Soul

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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