Why are Catholics and Orthodox treated differently by protestants?

Not David

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It could well be so. I don't know these churches from the inside, that proudly label others as heretics who will go to hell.

But all the way from the Council of Chalcedon in 451, stuff that really was more about politics have been dressed in the clothes of theological differences. Today Eastern and Oriental Orthodox agree that the condemnation at that Council mostly depend on misunderstandings because of language problems plus political interests. Those ghastly "monophysites" don't exist. It was all largely misunderstanding, and slightly different ways of phrasing highly related concepts.

I'd like to remind that many Orthodox still don't accept Protestant baptism, but baptise those who convert. And before the Second Vatican Council, the Catholics considered us all heretics. *shrug*
I think considering the issues of the Council of Chalcedon as only "a political issue" and "misunderstanding language" would mean that the Church Fathers stupidly divided the Church and ignore condenations of each other.
 
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Rosie Q

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think considering the issues of the Council of Chalcedon as only "a political issue" and "misunderstanding language" would mean that the Church Fathers stupidly divided the Church and ignore condenations of each other.

Well, I'm not good at finding the sources for this. I really don't have much clue about Orthodox internet but this is what Orthodox university teachers have told me. Not totally sure if they referred to what scholars of today say, or what the Oriental-Byzantine dialogue has come down to. But I imagine it's a bit like Lutherans and Catholics actually have come to an agreement regarding salvation, faith and works. They have, you know.

In every sensible book about Church history, you'll learn that politics always played an important part.
 
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Albion

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But I imagine it's a bit like Lutherans and Catholics actually have come to an agreement regarding salvation, faith and works. They have, you know.
My impression was that what was achieved there was something like a budget bill compromise in Congress--the real issues glossed over with creative language but looking enough like a genuine agreement for the parties to break out the champagne.
 
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Not David

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Well, I'm not good at finding the sources for this. I really don't have much clue about Orthodox internet but this is what Orthodox university teachers have told me. Not totally sure if they referred to what scholars of today say, or what the Oriental-Byzantine dialogue has come down to. But I imagine it's a bit like Lutherans and Catholics actually have come to an agreement regarding salvation, faith and works. They have, you know.

In every sensible book about Church history, you'll learn that politics always played an important part.
In a certain way, yes. Nevertheless, theology has been involved too.

My college professor said the filioque was purely political but we know theology was important too.
 
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Rosie Q

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I'd never say purely political. I did write " more about politics", "mostly depend on" etc.

It is true that these documents of official dialogue sometimes seems of limited value. But at least I don't think it's sensible to discuss like it's all about theology. It problably never was, and never will be, since we're sinful humans etc.
 
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Rosie Q

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Politics and misunderstanding, is what I have heard. It's what I wrote here, too. Emphasis on translation problems, IIRC.

But I don't have a good source so I will have to leave it at that. To the rest of you: please don't misquote me any more and oversimplify? or I'll come back to this thread in a couple of days and read the most fantastic things about what I allegedly said ...
 
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Rosie Q

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I could be terribly wrong but I do not think those who say so feel like you. Quite the contrary. I have it from both Eastern and Oriental folks.

Your opinon is noted. As I already said, I have no good sources and will have to leave this at that. You are, of course, free to state your opinion a third time.
 
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ArmyMatt

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well, both sides say their respective Fathers were men of prayer who were illumined by God and who sought truth. to say politics and linguistic errors caused the split is to say that those things were greater than the Holy Spirit Who both sides claim their was at work in their Fathers.

pretty insulting to both camps and God Himself.
 
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RobNJ

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I could be terribly wrong but I do not think those who say so feel like you. Quite the contrary. I have it from both Eastern and Oriental folks.

Your opinon is noted. As I already said, I have no good sources and will have to leave this at that. You are, of course, free to state your opinion a third time.


Well, they probably knew as little about the issue as you, and I do. However, if the "Eastern and Oriental folks" think THEY can just decide to ignore an Ecumenical Council, and do whatever they want, they're acting like you protestants. As for actually KNOWING the issues, I trust Fr. Matt's opinion, being that he probably learned ALL about it, in seminary.
 
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Rosie Q

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... those teachers teach at an Orthodox seminary ...

You know, you act like I should friggin' apologise for stating. an. opinion. of. which. there. is. no. reason. to take. offense. unless. one. searches. for reasons. to. do. so.

That is, um. Interesting.
 
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ArmyMatt

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... those teachers teach at an Orthodox seminary ...

You know, you act like I should friggin' apologise for stating. an. opinion. of. which. there. is. no. reason. to take. offense. unless. one. searches. for reasons. to. do. so.

That is, um. Interesting.

it's because this opinion insults our saints and theirs, and the many who died on both sides for standing up for what they believed to be true.
 
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dzheremi

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As the resident non-Chalcedonian heretic of this messageboard, I must agree with Fr. Matt that Chalcedon was mainly about theology. For sure, there are political aspects to every schism, but it is not until after Chalcedon that you start to see anything like a national/political identity wrapped up in the rejection of it. Modern Coptic historians like Maged S.A. Mikhail (From Byzantine to Islamic Egypt) have dealt with the claim on the part of the Copts that the rejection of Chalcedon was a sort of 'ethnic revolt' against Greek dominance, and have found it to be baseless, as the Greek language remained a perfectly fine vehicle to express anti-Chalcedonian theology within Egypt for centuries after Chalcedon. (There are even some much later Muslim writers, like Al-Maqrizi in the 15th century, who claim that the Copts remained conversant in Greek up until their own day, but there's no corroborating evidence of that.)

Just because many today would like to reduce it to other things doesn't mean that if we were somehow to 'fix' those other things, the schism would be over. Eventually we'd have to deal with the theology behind it. I thank God that our representatives on both sides in the official EO-OO dialogues seem to be among our keenest theological minds (and I've met one on the Coptic side -- Fr. Shenouda M. Ishak of NY -- so I can say this with some level of confidence; you don't produce a lengthy tome like Christology and the Council of Chalcedon, as the good father has, if you think it's all a matter of politics). It seems that many take the very slow, deliberate pace of said dialogues as a bad sign, but it is better this way than to rush into a union which would have a malformed, not carefully considered basis in anything other than theological agreement. It has taken 1,600 years and counting because both sides are serious. Thanks be to God / نشكرالله / Слава Богу.
 
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ArmyMatt

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and from the EO side, Fr John McGuckin has written a huge volume called "St Cyril of Alexandria and the Christological Controversy." while it focuses on Nestorianism, he does go into the theology of Chalcedon, and why we believe Chalcedon to be of one faith with Ephesus.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Indeed. I just quoted that particular work by Fr. John yesterday in a thread on the non-Chalcedonian subforum. :)

nice. and I agree that the only way that reunion will occur is by a serious look at both our common history and since the schism. just pretending we can all go back to before Ephesus won't solve anything.
 
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bèlla

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I tend to think that the significance the ancient churches hold toward Apostolic Succession and their sense of history is held in contempt by those who know they possess neither.

Perhaps it doesn’t resonate with them. That doesn’t imply jealousy or lack of any sort. Its not their cup of tea.
 
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