Liturgical terminology

~Anastasia~ · Jul 20, 2019

Rosie Q said:
Anastasia, I guess it has to do with the fact that in the US there is established, American, not ethnical Orthodoxy. What small tries that have been done here of "non ethnical Orthodoxy" is under the jurisdiction of the bishop of one of the "ethnical" church. It's not the same. The latin terminology is equally wrong for all of you! plus doesn't sound like gibberish in other people's ears.

Well how non-ethnic we have it varies a lot. But surely yes, compared to traditionally Orthodox countries, it is a little or even a lot different here.

I gathered Latin was technically "wrong" and not sure how we came to adopt it. Other than naming by the hours though, I wouldn't know what to do.

Andrei D · Jul 20, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
I gathered Latin was technically "wrong" and not sure how we came to adopt it. Other than naming by the hours though, I wouldn't know what to do.

Well I use my Slavonic based Romanian names, but for public use, I say, when in doubt use the Greek. There is no denying Greek is "our" shared language. What's the problem with Orthros/(H)Esperinos/Apodipnon/Mesonyktikon? I fail to see the controversy.

prodromos · Jul 20, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
I gathered Latin was technically "wrong" and not sure how we came to adopt it. Other than naming by the hours though, I wouldn't know what to do.

I'm guessing the English terms came from the Latin, seeing as how Rome basically took over the Church in the British Isles at the end of the 6th century. We've simply picked up what are now the established English language terms.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 21, 2019

Andrei D said:
Well I use my Slavonic based Romanian names, but for public use, I say, when in doubt use the Greek. There is no denying Greek is "our" shared language. What's the problem with Orthros/(H)Esperinos/Apodipnon/Mesonyktikon? I fail to see the controversy.

Haha nothing except I've never heard them and would have to learn a whole new set of words.

It's no big deal though. At first the Greek Church was one huge mystery but I've learned so many words that concerning Church, my mind thinks many of them in Greek.

I still can't carry on a conversation though.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 21, 2019

prodromos said:
I'm guessing the English terms came from the Latin, seeing as how Rome basically took over the Church in the British Isles at the end of the 6th century. We've simply picked up what are now the established English language terms.

That makes sense.

I was actually surprised when I first learned the Catholic and Protestant words were the same ones I knew.

For one we "inherited" backwards. It was a bit of a shock.

Rosie Q · Jul 21, 2019

Andrei D said:
What's the problem with Orthros/(H)Esperinos/Apodipnon/Mesonyktikon? I fail to see the controversy.

If "my" parish used those, I suppose I'd have no problems.

prodromos said:
We've simply picked up what are now the established English language terms.

You could be right. At least if there's substantail British influence. "Mattins" is the Anglican/Episcopal Church word. Catholics (and Lutherans) say Lauds or Laudes.

That would kind of explain why the logical thing around here is to just call it "morning prayer" and "evening prayer", if we're simply following the terminology of the majority. Vespers etc. do exist among Lutherans but I must admit it's not terribly common.

~Anastasia~ said:
At first the Greek Church was one huge mystery but I've learned so many words that concerning Church, my mind thinks many of them in Greek.

I still can't carry on a conversation though.

That must be a flip side of Greek parishes. Even if I try not to (and why should I), I'll be learning bits of a language I won't otherwise have use for. But Greek kind if makes sense for a Christian.

Rosie Q · Jul 21, 2019

Do you find any substantial difference in content betwee, form or origin between those services that have names, and those just named by the hours?

ArmyMatt · Jul 21, 2019

Rosie Q said:
Do you find any substantial difference in content betwee, form or origin between those services that have names, and those just named by the hours?

nope.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 21, 2019

Rosie Q said:
That must be a flip side of Greek parishes. Even if I try not to (and why should I), I'll be learning bits of a language I won't otherwise have use for. But Greek kind if makes sense for a Christian

Oh I absolutely am not complaining. I have had an interest in Biblical Greek for a long time - I've learned much more, and especially more nuanced understanding, from the Greek Church where I belong.

Rosie Q · Jul 22, 2019

Andrei D said:
There is no denying Greek is "our" shared language. What's the problem with Orthros/(H)Esperinos/Apodipnon/Mesonyktikon? I fail to see the controversy.

So, according to Orthodoxwiki:
Orthros - morning (mattins)
Hesperinos - evening (vespers)
Apodipnon - late evening (compline) (should that be apodeipnon, with an e?)
Mesonyktikon - midnight (not sure if Western monastics have that midnight prayer hour, and if so what they call it)

John Behr briefly mentions in "The Mystery of Christ" that vespers begins with Psalm 104. This then refers to hesperinos. And if this "vigilia" (non-alnight-vigil done in the evening) block of prayer hours begins with the hesperinos, the vigilia should begin with Psalm 104. It happens to be a favourite of mine, partly because I've sung it in Western vespers and know chunks of the text by heart. I do think it has passed by in the vigilia, recited by the cantor. (I should know but it's still very confusing, plenty of stuff passes by and most of it goes straight through my head since I'm busy keeping on track)

Thank you, Andrei. At first I was like "oh no, no more weird stuff - graeca sunt, non leguntur.* I have quite enough with heirmos, kontakion and kegragarion already, plus some stuff in the immigrant language of this parish." But in my context the Greek words probably are a lot better than the English/Latin. Most of the parish would not understand vespers, but the cantor will for for sure know hesperinos.

(Do you say cantor, by the way. Or is that a protestantisation of the terminology?)

* When the West lost knowledge of the Greek language, the monks who copied learned books got in trouble. Of course they stopped copying books that were entirely in Greek, but the early Latin writers had quoted Greek authors and the quotes were in the original language - of course, since all learned folks had known Greek then. Now, when nobody in the West knew Greek any more, the monks omitted the unintelligable section adding a note: "Graeca sunt, non leguntur". People translate it as "Greek, not read" or "This is Greek. One doesn't read that".

~Anastasia~ · Jul 22, 2019

I never really thought about it, but I usually use "cantor" or "chanters" for the sake of people reading in English. I'm actually a little more comfortable saying "psaltis" ... which I might be transliterating wrong.

Andrei D · Jul 22, 2019

We say psaltes, and there can be a protopsalt

I really don't know about "unified vigils" - this is certainly not what is done on daily basis in Romanian monasteries as far as I remember.

Also, slightly off topic, to me, the liturgical cycle doesn't make a lot of sense if you don't contextualize it with the normal, natural human sleep behavior which we have lost at our great peril: The myth of the eight-hour sleep

~Anastasia~ · Jul 22, 2019

Yes we have a protopsalti(s?) sometimes.

I'm just not quite sure if I'm saying/spelling them right since I've never seen it written. I know what they mean at least.

nutroll · Jul 22, 2019

The reason why all-night vigil is called all-night is that it can take all night if done with everything the typicon calls for. It would take you from Vespers into Liturgy in the early morning hours. Very few places will do things according to the full description of the typicon, and if so, often only on occasion. Different parishes abbreviate in different ways, but when vigil takes 2.5 hours and liturgy with 3rd and 6th hour preceding it takes close to 2 hours, it already takes 4-5 hours in most parishes. To make it to all-night only takes a few extra hours of material.

Rosie Q · Jul 23, 2019

nutroll said:
The reason why all-night vigil is called all-night is that it can take all night if done with everything the typicon calls for.

Sounds resonable. The word vigil in itself - vigilia in Latin - means to wake.

And a typicon is ...? (this certainly is a crash course in Greek)

Rosie Q · Jul 23, 2019

Andrei D said:
We say psaltes, and there can be a protopsalt

I've seen the word protopsaltis, yes. When I googled it, I found plenty of people whose surname is Protopsaltis. Well there are people called Cantor, too.

Typically - well I guess this might vary. But in your tradition (and others who read this), is a cantor/psaltis/whatever someone who has learned this type of music and that's it? Or have cantors also typically studied liturgy (in the broader sense of the word) in depth? Around here, it seems the cantor is the one who knows plenty of stuff about liturgy and the theological meaning of its various parts. Maybe it's a natural part of that role.

Anhelyna · Jul 23, 2019

This Site was actually suggested to me by All4Christ as a source for getting explanations of the various terms used - have a good look at it Rosie Q - it may prove helpful for you

Orthodox Liturgical Terms Dictionary - ArchangelsBooks.com

Anhelyna · Jul 23, 2019

My GodPapa is a Reader - the guy who actually stands in the centre of the Church and chants the Epistle - and he is a Liturgical nerd - he loves Liturgy and does his very best to ensure that , as far as he can , there are no 'slip-ups' during the Service.

Andrei D · Jul 23, 2019

I was JUST saying I haven't seen the "unified vigil" service before, and this is exactly how things ought to be - that is get knocked over the head right away

Our parish just sent an e-mail announcing that exact service (starting at 10 PM,and culminating with the Divine Liturgy at 1 AM-ish) on Aug 2 as it is apparently the tradition in OUR jurisdiction (and I had no idea!) when we enter the Dormition Fast! I'm so giddy and happy for some reason to be shown my ignorance

~Anastasia~ · Jul 23, 2019

Rosie Q said:
I've seen the word protopsaltis, yes. When I googled it, I found plenty of people whose surname is Protopsaltis. Well there are people called Cantor, too.

Typically - well I guess this might vary. But in your tradition (and others who read this), is a cantor/psaltis/whatever someone who has learned this type of music and that's it? Or have cantors also typically studied liturgy (in the broader sense of the word) in depth? Around here, it seems the cantor is the one who knows plenty of stuff about liturgy and the theological meaning of its various parts. Maybe it's a natural part of that role.

It takes a LONG TIME to learn to properly chant. In Greece apparently the saying was 35 years - our protopsaltis grew up on the chant stand learning from his father. (Unfortunately he actually lives in Greece now and just visits a few times a year to see his doctor.) They have made training courses now which take 5 years to complete (in Greece) ... some of us in the US (I do not call myself a chanter/psaltis) just muddle along and try to learn.

But you learn a great deal of liturgical structure and arrangement and all that along the way - before you really learn to chant I would say.

Arranging the service is no longer the job it used to be. It took a lot of knowledge and many books. But while some still do that, we have it available from a service that shares it online, so our parish simply downloads it - meaning I don't have to learn how to do it and simply observe the outcome which means I learn a little. But not the great number of things I would need to do it myself.

And that's just a Greek parish in the US. There are other jurisdictions and so things will vary. And that's OK. Orthodoxy is not an ethnicity.

Liturgical terminology

† Handmaid of God †

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

† Handmaid of God †

† Handmaid of God †

Active Member

Active Member

Regular Member

† Handmaid of God †

Active Member

† Handmaid of God †

Well-Known Member

† Handmaid of God †

Veteran

Active Member

Active Member

Handmaid of God

Handmaid of God

Well-Known Member

† Handmaid of God †

Similar threads