Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

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“None is righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10.

Persons with unconfessed sin- that covers every single person on planet earth, including yourself. That is why we are saved by Grace. God Bless :)

First, the context is "Circumcision Salvationism." Romans 3:1 asks the question, "what profit is there of circumcision?" In other words, Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); For a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Second, if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 applies to the present tense walk of the believer (and it is not teaching "Initial Salvation"), then you must conclude that the believer today has no understanding and they do not seek after God as per Romans 3:11. Do you believe that no believer today has no understanding and they do not seek after God?

Three, just providing one verse is not what I had in mind for you to prove your case that a person can sin and still be saved according to the Bible. I was looking for several points in Scripture that makes for a good case (in your opinion).
 
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What is this "Popular Christianity" of which you speak?

While I encounter some people, once in a while, who seem to think the way it is being described on this thread, those people are far from typical and they simply misunderstand the teaching of their own churches.

So I have to question whether it is correct to refer to that mindset as either popular or representative of any significant branch of Christianity.

Protestantism is the second largest Christian denomination (with approximately 800 million adherents). Protestantism believes in Sola Fide (Belief Alone-ism). The majority of Protestants I have talked with hold to the view that a person's future sin is forgiven them. If a new believer is told that their future sin is forgiven them and no explanation is given on how to live holy, they can easily turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns us against). George Sodini is proof that one can turn God's grace into a license for immorality. To read his story of how he thought he could commit mass murder and then suicide and still be saved, check out this article here.

But this thread should not primarily be me on the defensive always. This thread is about the Belief Alone Proponent proving with the Bible that a believer can willfully commit sin and still be saved while doing so. This thread is about them going on the offensive for a change instead of me always going on the defensive. They need to prove their case with the Bible based on what they have studied and not from what they have been spoon fed. So no copying of websites, etc. They need to read the Bible and make their case here.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Important Note:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case. Thank you.
These verses come to mind, tho it appears these Epistles generally were written to the Hebrew Jews/Israelites?.........

Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28A man who disregards Moses' law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance belongs to me," says the Lord, "I will repay." Again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 37"In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait. 38But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.

2 Peter 2:
17These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever. 18For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error; 19promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb, "The dog turns to his own vomit again," and "the sow that has washed to wallowing in the mire."
======================
Ezekiel 33:
12You, son of man, tell the children of your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his disobedience; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turns from his wickedness; neither shall he who is righteous be able to live thereby in the day that he sins. 13When I tell the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his righteousness, and commit iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in his iniquity that he has committed, therein shall he die. 14Again, when I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15if the wicked restore the pledge, give again that which he had taken by robbery, walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him: he has done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
 
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These verses come to mind, tho it appears these Epistles generally were written to the Hebrew Jews/Israelites?.........

Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28A man who disregards Moses' law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance belongs to me," says the Lord, "I will repay." Again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
37"In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.
38But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.

2 Peter 2:
17These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever. 18For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error; 19promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb, "The dog turns to his own vomit again," and "the sow that has washed to wallowing in the mire."

These passages appear to teach against those who think they can willfully sin and still be saved. I want to make sure we are on the same page here. This thread topic is about Belief Alone Proponents proving their case with the Bible that a believer can successfully commit willful grievous sin and still be saved while doing so.
 
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Albion

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Protestantism is the second largest Christian denomination (with approximately 800 million adherents). Protestantism believes in Sola Fide (Belief Alone-ism). The majority of Protestants I have talked with hold to the view that a person's future sin is forgiven them. If a new believer is told that their future sin is forgiven them and no explanation is given on how to live holy, they can easily turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns us against).

Lets see now. "They can easily turn...." and "if a new believer is told…." are statements that certainly qualify what was originally posted when such a mistaken attitude was described as "Popular Christianity teaches" (!)

In fact, you are now describing an exception to the belief system of Protestantism or a perversion of it, not something that's very common, let alone typical.

This is good; it looks like we are getting this straightened out.
 
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Tree of Life

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We walk by faith and not by sight. If I claimed to live like a saint for months, you would still find fault that I could only walk uprightly for months, and not for the life span of my entire walk with God. If I lived like a saint for years, you could still find fault in saying I can only walk uprightly with God for a few years.

I believe that I sin every day in multiple ways, both known and unknown. I'm just curious to expose how shallow your view of sin actually is.

I suspect you'll pull a move something like this:

"Well, I'm not perfect, but I do live like a saint. Yes I might've gone a few miles over the speed limit or I might have been angry in my heart for a moment earlier today, but I haven't committed any serious sins. You know, the sins that lead to death."

But this just exposes the fact that you think that some sins are not serious. Again, a shallow and unbiblical view of sin.

But maybe my suspicions are wrong. I'm eager to hear from you on this!
 
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Bobber

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Please take note that I am aware that there are those who do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and yet they also believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. Free Will Baptists would be one example of this. Some believe you can only sin a little bit on occasion as long as one strives to live a holy life (Whatever that means)

It means what it says. If you're truly striving to live a holy life I mean you're genuinely trying to do so God knows your heart and you're saved. People can fall in a moment of weakness, maybe a lack of prayer and fellowship with the Lord on a certain day and temptation overcomes them and I'm not talking about what we might think of as major sins.....even something like being a little short tempered a certain day and saying an unkind word which they need to repent of....such doesn't mean they wouldn't make heaven their home if they died before doing so.

If you're advocating one has to maintain the absolute standard of holiness every second of the day or you're lost/saved, lost/saved, lost and oh yes you repented again and you did just in time before you died....no....doesn't work that way. God looks at the heart. What is the person willfully choosing to do as an ongoing pattern in their life is I think how God looks upon it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It means what it says. If you're truly striving to live a holy life I mean you're genuinely trying to do so God knows your heart and you're saved.
God looks at the heart. What is the person willfully choosing to do as an ongoing pattern in their life is I think how God looks upon it.
Great post Bobber.
Some scriptures:

Jeremiah 17:10
"I, Yahweh, search the heart, I test the mind.
Even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds. [Revelation 2:23]

Luke 16:15
So He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is prized among men is detestable before God.
Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the Saints according to the will of God

Jesus talking to the Assemblies of believers:

Revelation 2:23
and her children I will kill in death.
And shall be knowing all the Assemblies that I Am He Who is searching reins and hearts;
and I will give to ye-- to each -- according to your works. [Jeremiah 17:10]
 
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A_Thinker

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Right, and why does the Lord not know them?
It's because they are not keeping His commandments (i.e. they are sinning or committing iniquity).
Regarding ... "I never knew you."

Jesus says that all who come to Him in faith ... make relationship with Him ... and are never cast out ...

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in with him, and sup with him.

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 
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A new, baby Christian is saved when calling on Jesus as Lord.
They have not yet been scolded by experienced Christians
on the long and extensive list of 1000's of sins in their lives.
Yet they are still saved.

Where is that taught in the Bible?
Please give Scriptural references for these statements please.
Please take note that the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of sin so that they will repent or confess of their sin (See John 16:8-9). So the excuse that we cannot possibly know about all our grievous sins (that can condemn us) does not hold water.

Anyways, I want to say thank you for being the only person so far in this thread to make a proper attempt at defending a sin and still be saved type belief in the Bible. Others have either made smart comments, put forth conditions, gave just one verse, or they referred to a book in the Bible general in passing. While we may not agree, I want to at least say, "Thank you" for speaking on topic correctly.

You said:
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"...it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

How many times do you receive a gift?
Do you keep receiving gifts over and over?
Or do you receive a gift one time?
Seeing that gifts are received at one time in our life, this is referring to "Initial Salvation" (Which is a one time event).

Ephesians 2:1 says that we have been quickened. How many times do you believe we are quickened? One time obviously, right? So this is referring to a one time event (Which is talking about "Initial Salvation.").

Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith.
How many times does that happen generally?
One time when a person first accepts Christ, right?
So again, the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to "Initial Salvation."

We are saved Initially by God's grace through faith and not of works.
Yet, Paul says works will follow and that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

In other words, Paul is telling us not to put the cart before the horse.

Paul never says we can sin and still be saved as a part of Ephesians 2:8-9. That is simply not in the text here.

Ephesians 2:9 is referring to "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace through faith in Christ). Why? Because Ephesians 2:9 mentions how it is the kind of work that a man would boast in.

Philippians 2:13, and John 15:5 teach us that God does the good work through us. So there is no boasting in any kind of work we do, but there is only a boasting in God for any good work done in our lives.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works done through the believer because it refers to the kind of work that a believer is created to do in Christ Jesus since the foundation of the world. It's Sanctification, and not boasting in oneself over what they did like in Ephesians 2:9.

Anyways, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, you have to also read Ephesians 5 that says,

3 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
(Ephesians 5:3-5).

You said:
Romans 10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Again, this is where salvation starts. This is the first step or Initial Salvation (i.e. by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13).
But if you were to keep reading, in Romans 11:21-22 essentially says that we have to continue in God's goodness, otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews.

So again, this verse does not prove that a believer can willfully sin with the thinking they can be saved while doing so.

You said:
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Again, this was told to a person who was first coming to the faith, and it was not said to a seasoned believer who needed assurance of his salvation while he was in his sin. Also, believing in Jesus not only includes believing in the person of Jesus Christ, but it would naturally include believing in Christ's teachings, as well. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (See: Luke 6:46).

For Jesus says that the person who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27). This is context to Jesus telling certain believers who did good works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin, too (See: Matthew 7:23). Oh, and if you think Paul taught contrary to the words of Jesus, think again. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

You said:
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation." Nothing is said here about how one can willfully sin and still be saved.

Besides, we know that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him as per Acts chapter 5.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

An example of this can be seen with Simon the sorcerer. The Spirit did not fall upon him and others yet until he was tested later on. He proved that his heart was not true in his obedience to God in the fact that he tried to pay for the Holy Spirit (See: Acts of the Apostles 8:9-24).

You said:
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

But if you were to keep reading, it mentions the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21. It says all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the Light. So if a person has the intention of continuing to do evil while believing in Jesus, they are not coming to the true Light as described in the Bible. For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). So believing in Jesus for salvation includes doing what He says.

Let me give you a real world example:

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

You said:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Many will think that this is teaching that we have to be water baptized to be saved. But I believe this verse is referring to being baptized into the Holy Spirit via by the laying on of hands by other faithful believers. Granted, a person can receive the Spirit without the laying on of hands and they can receive the Spirit merely by seeking forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus Christ and in believing in His death and resurrection.

In either case, this is primarily in reference to a person first accepting Christ and it is not in reference to "Continued Salvation" or "Sanctification."

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation by two things:

(a) Belief in the Truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
(b) Sanctification (Holy Living - See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

For Romans 8:13 says, if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) via by the Holy Spirit, we will live (live spiritually).
 
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I believe that I sin every day in multiple ways, both known and unknown. I'm just curious to expose how shallow your view of sin actually is.

I suspect you'll pull a move something like this:

"Well, I'm not perfect, but I do live like a saint. Yes I might've gone a few miles over the speed limit or I might have been angry in my heart for a moment earlier today, but I haven't committed any serious sins. You know, the sins that lead to death."

But this just exposes the fact that you think that some sins are not serious. Again, a shallow and unbiblical view of sin.

But maybe my suspicions are wrong. I'm eager to hear from you on this!

Again, this thread is not about me being on the defensive. It is about you being on the offensive. I am on the defensive plenty of times in regards to your view of Soteriology, and I continue to do so. However, the topic of this thread is you going on the offensive and proving your case for your own Soteriology (for a change). What is odd is that so many do not make any effort at defending a "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type Belief with the Scriptures. This to me is revealing because it simply means there is no real case to make for this kind of belief. It is all an illusion.

Anyways, the ball is in your court.
Either stay on topic and prove your belief with Scripture, or go off topic and ask me to defend my belief.
 
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Resha Caner

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Anyways, the topic of this thread is for a person to make their case that a believer can sin and still be saved or that we are saved by a Belief Alone according to the Bible.

What is the purpose of making such a case?
 
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Tree of Life

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Again, this thread is not about me being on the defensive. It is about you being on the offensive. I am on the defensive plenty of times in regards to your view of Soteriology, and I continue to do so. However, the topic of this thread is you going on the offensive and proving your case for your own Soteriology (for a change). What is odd is that so many do not make any effort at defending a "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type Belief with the Scriptures. This to me is revealing because it simply means there is no real case to make for this kind of belief. It is all an illusion.

Anyways, the ball is in your court.
Either stay on topic and prove your belief with Scripture, or go off topic and ask me to defend my belief.

I don't want to expend the energy to mount a Biblical defense of my position because you are unwilling to seriously consider it. As you yourself said, you already know all the proof texts and you're not interested in giving it a serious hearing. My experience with you is that mounting such a defense is a waste of time. So I'm not going to go that route.

I'd rather go off topic and hear from you on your view of sin. When is the last time you think that you sinned?
 
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Regarding ... "I never knew you."

Jesus says that all who come to Him in faith ... make relationship with Him ... and are never cast out ...

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

First, this does not undo the truth in 1 John 2:3-4. If a person says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The truth that needs to be in a person for salvation is Jesus Christ (John 14:6). 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Second, as for John 6:37-40:

Well, John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

You said:
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in with him, and sup with him.

When you read Revelation 3:20, you also have to read verse 5 that says,

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

Reading a similar verse we see this:

32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33).

Did you catch that?

It says we deny Jesus before men, He will deny us before the Father. So you have to read Scripture from a balanced point of view and not only look at the verses that you prefer to see, friend.



Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)
 
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Neogaia777

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What is willful and not willful sin...? Do some sin not willfully...? Or is not all sin willful sin...? And since all sin...? Well...

And is not God the judge of who will or shall be saved or shall not be saved or not due to any kind of sin or sinning, or not...?

And you wish to take that away from Him and set yourself up as judge...?

And also, everyone has their time or times, and at different times, and, again, is God not the judge of that and not you...? And is not God the judge of all those and "all these things" pertaining to sin, righteousness, ect, and not you...? By your telling anyone they are not saved because they do this or that sin, you make yourself, judge and jury, prosecutor, ect... And THAT IS SIN, and sin of the worst kind in my book... You set yourself up as God by doing so...

Now, is is possible that some will not be saved due to some kind of sin or sins in their lives...? yes, it is... but it is also possible and very, very likely that many will be saved irregardless of some sin or certain kinds of sins, ect, very, very likely that some or even many shall still be saved irregardless of that... And only God is or can be the judge of that/this and not you... By your putting yourself there, you are removing God from His throne and putting yourself there and making yourself God instead... And what do you think God is going to think about that...? Will He say you sinned...?

God Bless!
 
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I don't want to expend the energy to mount a Biblical defense of my position because you are unwilling to seriously consider it. As you yourself said, you already know all the proof texts and you're not interested in giving it a serious hearing. My experience with you is that mounting such a defense is a waste of time. So I'm not going to go that route.

I'd rather go off topic and hear from you on your view of sin. When is the last time you think that you sinned?

Then you are in the wrong thread.

Besides, continually going off topic and interrupting the thread (against the poster's wishes) is against forum rules. Please stay on topic with the thread and post your case for your view of Soteriology or leave the thread. Thank you.

Side Note:

I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so.
 
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Neogaia777

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What is willful and not willful sin...? Do some sin not willfully...? Or is not all sin willful sin...? And since all sin...? Well...

And is not God the judge of who will or shall be saved or shall not be saved or not due to any kind of sin or sinning, or not...?

And you wish to take that away from Him and set yourself up as judge...?

And also, everyone has their time or times, and at different times, and, again, is God not the judge of that and not you...? And is not God the judge of all those and "all these things" pertaining to sin, righteousness, ect, and not you...? By your telling anyone they are not saved because they do this or that sin, you make yourself, judge and jury, prosecutor, ect... And THAT IS SIN, and sin of the worst kind in my book... You set yourself up as God by doing so...

Now, is is possible that some will not be saved due to some kind of sin or sins in their lives...? yes, it is... but it is also possible and very, very likely that many will be saved irregardless of some sin or certain kinds of sins, ect, very, very likely that some or even many shall still be saved irregardless of that... And only God is or can be the judge of that/this and not you... By your putting yourself there, you are removing God from His throne and putting yourself there and making yourself God instead... And what do you think God is going to think about that...? Will He say you sinned...?

God Bless!
This is about you setting yourself up as judge and jury, and judge of others, and removing God from His rightful place and putting yourself there as God, and not sin, which is the worst kind of sin...

God Bless!
 
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This is about you setting yourself up as judge and jury, and judge of others, and removing God from His rightful place and putting yourself there as God, and not sin, which is the worst kind of sin...

God Bless!

Off topic. Please make your case with the Bible that a believer can commit grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and still be saved. That is the topic of this thread. Make your case please with the Bible. If not, you are off topic.
 
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I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so.

So just to clarify...

You would define willful sin as a sin that we knowingly commit? Like David's sins with Uriah and Bathsheba. Or Peter's sin of denying Jesus. Those are willful, yes?

And you believe that when a "saved" person like David or Peter commits such a sin, that they become "unsaved" and must do something in order to become "saved again"?

Is this your position?
 
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What is willful and not willful sin...? Do some sin not willfully...? Or is not all sin willful sin...? And since all sin...? Well...

And is not God the judge of who will or shall be saved or shall not be saved or not due to any kind of sin or sinning, or not...?

And you wish to take that away from Him and set yourself up as judge...?

And also, everyone has their time or times, and at different times, and, again, is God not the judge of that and not you...? And is not God the judge of all those and "all these things" pertaining to sin, righteousness, ect, and not you...? By your telling anyone they are not saved because they do this or that sin, you make yourself, judge and jury, prosecutor, ect... And THAT IS SIN, and sin of the worst kind in my book... You set yourself up as God by doing so...

Now, is is possible that some will not be saved due to some kind of sin or sins in their lives...? yes, it is... but it is also possible and very, very likely that many will be saved irregardless of some sin or certain kinds of sins, ect, very, very likely that some or even many shall still be saved irregardless of that... And only God is or can be the judge of that/this and not you... By your putting yourself there, you are removing God from His throne and putting yourself there and making yourself God instead... And what do you think God is going to think about that...? Will He say you sinned...?

God Bless!

Willful sin is what I would refer to as justifying sin with the thinking one is saved. It is intentionally sinning with the one thinking they are saved while doing so. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

Anyways, please refrain from making questions, etc. and make your case with the Bible please. That is what the purpose of this thread is for.

Thank you.
 
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