How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

bling said:

Option one: The future is unknown to God, except for what He will do: How would God state a “warning” to a nation that is bad at the time of the warning? God would say: “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” God would not say: “I will destroy you”, because He might not destroy them, so He would lie if He said He would. The “if” wou

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But the “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” is exactly the message given over and over, in varied warnings of sufferings, including desolation and outright destruction and enslavement.

Like this : “If you do [certain wrongs] I will [ varied form of loss and destruction] you.”
But, if you turn and instead keep my laws I will relent and not destroy you, and will instead bless you.

If you'd like to see that, I can search up quite a few even before the book of Proverbs, that is even before the boatload of numerous examples via the prophets.

Halbhh said:

But the “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” is exactly the message given over and over, in varied warnings of sufferings, including desolation and outright destruction and enslavement.

Like this : “If you do [certain wrongs] I will [ varied form of loss and destruction] you.”
But, if you turn and instead keep my laws I will relent and not destroy you, and will instead bless you.

If you'd like to see that, I can search up quite a few even before the book of Proverbs, that is even before the boatload of numerous examples via the prophets.

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He tried quite literally "everything" to restore us and get us to choose rightly, quite literally "everything"... and maybe a few times, and sometimes, in some few cases, we did, for a little while anyway... but, we would always go back to choosing wrongly, even with the ones that did occasionally (choose rightly sometimes)... And most of all us always chose wrongly most of the time, and if not almost all of the time... And the ones that occasionally chose rightly, very quickly went back to choosing wrongly and not choosing rightly again, ect...

I wonder how that made Him "feel"...? Well, I don't think we actually do have to "wonder" because much of it is recorded and is on record actually...

Eventually He either gave up either willingly, or lost unwillingly, or forsook for awhile, the world (and us) during His 400 years of "silence", until Christ came, or was maybe waiting on Christ to come...

What happened then though...? What is the "rest of the story"...?

Did we run out of chances to choose rightly, and Christ somehow fixed that or restored it/that, or brought that chance back again, or that choice back again...?

Or did He somehow through Himself somehow, cause it to even go "way beyond that" somehow...? Maybe to where "all would absolutely be saved absolutely irregardless of that choice or not"...? Or, does it still depend on that choice....? Or not...? Or what...?

What is "the rest of the story"...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

He tried quite literally "everything" to restore us and get us to choose rightly, quite literally "everything"... and maybe a few times, and sometimes, in some few cases, we did, for a little while anyway... but, we would always go back to choosing wrongly, even with the ones that did occasionally (choose rightly sometimes)... And most of all us always chose wrongly most of the time, and if not almost all of the time... And the ones that occasionally chose rightly, very quickly went back to choosing wrongly and not choosing rightly again, ect...

I wonder how that made Him "feel"...? Well, I don't think we actually do have to "wonder" because much of it is recorded and is on record actually...

Eventually He either gave up either willingly, or lost unwillingly, or forsook for awhile, the world (and us) during His 400 years of "silence", until Christ came, or was maybe waiting on Christ to come...

What happened then though...? What is the "rest of the story"...?

Did we run out of chances to choose rightly, and Christ somehow fixed that or restored it/that, or brought that chance back again, or that choice back again...?

Or did He somehow through Himself somehow, cause it to even go "way beyond that" somehow...? Maybe to where "all would absolutely be saved absolutely irregardless of that choice or not"...? Or, does it still depend on that choice....? Or not...? Or what...?

What is "the rest of the story"...?

God Bless!

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I would like to note though, that there was a "One" who knew about "all of this", way, way, way ahead of time, even before the beginning, even before it all started or was made, or was even thought of or was conceived... and even made us all this way, or in the past, "that way", "anyway", ect...

And I have to wonder if there were any unresolved or mixed feelings there as well...? Just natural for me to wonder that...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

He tried quite literally "everything" to restore us and get us to choose rightly, quite literally "everything"... and maybe a few times, and sometimes, in some few cases, we did, for a little while anyway... but, we would always go back to choosing wrongly, even with the ones that did occasionally (choose rightly sometimes)... And most of all us always chose wrongly most of the time, and if not almost all of the time... And the ones that occasionally chose rightly, very quickly went back to choosing wrongly and not choosing rightly again, ect...

I wonder how that made Him "feel"...? Well, I don't think we actually do have to "wonder" because much of it is recorded and is on record actually...

Eventually He either gave up either willingly, or lost unwillingly, or forsook for awhile, the world (and us) during His 400 years of "silence", until Christ came, or was maybe waiting on Christ to come...

What happened then though...? What is the "rest of the story"...?

Did we run out of chances to choose rightly, and Christ somehow fixed that or restored it/that, or brought that chance back again, or that choice back again...?

Or did He somehow through Himself somehow, cause it to even go "way beyond that" somehow...? Maybe to where "all would absolutely be saved absolutely irregardless of that choice or not"...? Or, does it still depend on that choice....? Or not...? Or what...?

What is "the rest of the story"...?

God Bless!

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Yes, we hear at times how it made Him feel, in scripture.

What is the rest of the story? Well, there are the new testament prophecies, in a variety of places, especially Revelations, which tellingly begins with letters to the 7 churches at that time, with what they are doing wrong (and some so serious that it's clear it is not acceptable). One thinks of Matthew 7, especially those verses just after the Golden Rule in verse 12.

Neogaia777 said:

He tried quite literally "everything" to restore us and get us to choose rightly, quite literally "everything"... and maybe a few times, and sometimes, in some few cases, we did, for a little while anyway... but, we would always go back to choosing wrongly, even with the ones that did occasionally (choose rightly sometimes)... And most of all us always chose wrongly most of the time, and if not almost all of the time... And the ones that occasionally chose rightly, very quickly went back to choosing wrongly and not choosing rightly again, ect...

I wonder how that made Him "feel"...? Well, I don't think we actually do have to "wonder" because much of it is recorded and is on record actually...

Eventually He either gave up either willingly, or lost unwillingly, or forsook for awhile, the world (and us) during His 400 years of "silence", until Christ came, or was maybe waiting on Christ to come...

What happened then though...? What is the "rest of the story"...?

Did we run out of chances to choose rightly, and Christ somehow fixed that or restored it/that, or brought that chance back again, or that choice back again...?

Or did He somehow through Himself somehow, cause it to even go "way beyond that" somehow...? Maybe to where "all would absolutely be saved absolutely irregardless of that choice or not"...? Or, does it still depend on that choice....? Or not...? Or what...?

What is "the rest of the story"...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Halbhh said:

Yes, we hear at times how it made Him feel, in scripture.

What is the rest of the story? Well, there are the new testament prophecies, in a variety of places, especially Revelations, which tellingly begins with letters to the 7 churches at that time, with what they are doing wrong (and some so serious that it's clear it is not acceptable). One thinks of Matthew 7, especially those verses just after the Golden Rule in verse 12.

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If it dependent upon or hinges upon a choice, then what is that choice...?

Do we have to be perfect, or 100% sinless...? or just believe and have and keep the faith (in Him, in them) and not forget God's Law or Moral's or "Standards" in our hearts, and seek to obey and/ or keep them to the best of our own ability/abilties, or maybe even perfectly maybe, ect, or what...? And is, or would it be, or have to be perfectly...? or just to the best of our ability/abilities...? Or is it just not ever forget or forsake them(God standards) ever in our hearts, ect, and as long as were doing our best to keep them, not having to do it exactly perfectly, ect, or not, or not, ect...?

Many, many times God was very upset because they had forgotten or forsook or abandoned His Law(s), which is His Moral's or Standards, "in their hearts" I'm guessing ect...? and had not tried to remember them very well, or keep them in their mind and hearts or memory very well, or pass those standards onto their children, and instill them in the next and following generations, ect... So which is He more upset about...? Our just not remembering them in our hearts, passing them on, ect, or our inability to keep and/or obey them, or obey them perfectly, ect...

If it dependent upon or hinges upon a choice, then what is that choice...? What or how much is required, or otherwise, how little is required, ect...?

I don't think any of us can perfectly obey like it seems that God in the OT wanted us to (do) (in the past, ect)...? So, there has to be a way "around that" or another way right...? So, what is that way, ect...?

God Bless!

BNR32FAN said:

If someone was justified then they were at one time saved then later lost their salvation. When someone is justified “counted as being righteous by God” they have received Christ’s atonement and are at that time saved but if they fail abide in Christ and endure to the end they will forfeit their salvation. If they should fall away they can still be saved so long as they repent. What are your thoughts on John 1:12 in light of this subject? We’re talking about people who have received Christ as mentioned in John 15:1-10 and yet some fail to abide as stated in John 15:6. God gave them the right, authority, power to become children of God because they have received Christ. So why did they fail to abide? Is it by their own free will or is it because they were not chosen by God?

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They failed to abide because they chose to sin instead of choosing to listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit's promptings to obey God's commandments. Acts 5:32 The Holy Spirit was given to them to abide in them when they first believed and were baptized according to Matthew 28:19-21.

The Holy Spirit cannot abide in a person who has sinned a mortal sin. The Holy Spirit does continue to abide in a person who commits sin that is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17

If the Holy Spirit is present in the soul of a person at the time of his death, Jesus will grant him eternal life. The Holy Spirit's presence within a person's soul at the time of his death guarantees that he will inherit eternal life. Ephesians 1:13-14

Our initial belief and baptism and our continued obedience to God's commandments gives us continual hope of eternal life. But hope in eternal life is not a guarantee of eternal life. We will fall away from our salvation if we choose to disobey God's commandments and sin mortal sins. If I have not already given you examples of mortal sins, please let me know and I will post them. Some examples of them are listed in Mark 7:20-22.

Mark 7:20-22
And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. rsv


Jesus explains how people can fall away in the Parable about the Sower.

Luke 8:11-15
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience. rsv

Hammster said:

This should end the debate as to how free our choices are.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
— James 4:13-15

It aligns with

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

And

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

Or

The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
— Proverbs 16:9

Or

The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
— Proverbs 16:1

And this

Many plans are in a man’s heart,
But the counsel of the Lord will stand.
— Proverbs 19:21

So while there are some choices we can make, even those choices are subject to God. And, if scripture is to be believed, some choices are directly due to intervention from God.

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God causes no person to do evil. God prevents no person from doing good.

James 1:12-14
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. rsv

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God. rsv

Jesus died for all men (mankind) and He desires for all men to be saved. He does not prevent men from doing good and He does not force men to do evil.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. rsv

Pharaoh and the Egyptians in Exodus:
God knew before the foundation of the world that Pharaoh would choose to disobey God. And Pharaoh did freely choose to disobey God. God did not force Pharaoh to disobey Him. The Semitic style of writing portrays God's permissive will in a way that seems like God is preventing Pharaoh from doing good but in reality Pharaoh freely chose to harden his own heart to disobey God.

Example of Semitic style of writing about God's permissive will:

Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them; as the Lord had spoken to Moses. rsv

What actually happened:

Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. rsv

1 Samuel 6:6
Why should you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? After he had made sport of them, did not they let the people go, and they departed? rsv

Stephen Douglas said:

So, if God calls EVERYONE to repentance but only a few accept this call, why do some accept and endure while others reject it and fall away? God leaves such eternal consequences totally up man’s inept ability to make righteous choices?? Do only a few have some innate virtue within them that allows them to hear and respond to their Master’s voice while others do not?

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive even the elect, if it were possible.” Matthew 24:24

Doug

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It is not actually possible to deceive God's elect, but we on earth do not know who the elect are.

The elect are the people who were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to inherit eternal life. God chose them to be His elect because He foresaw that these people were found still faithful to Him and His commandments at the time of their death. God did not force these people to obey Him and God did not prevent these people from doing evil. They freely chose to know, love, and serve Him and they were still knowing, loving, and serving Him at the time of their death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. rsv

How do we receive faith in God?

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. rsv

The Holy Spirit will continually guide us to obey God's commandments until our death if we take up our cross daily and deny ourselves our illicit pleasures and evil desires and if we do the good works that God has willed/prepared beforehand for us to do. Ephesians 2:10, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:31-46

Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. rsv

Matthew 10:34-39
Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. rsv

The contrast between the evil works of the flesh and the good works of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:16-24
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy,drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another. rsv

There is no law against doing good. There are laws (commandments) against doing evil. If we do good works/produce good fruits with the right intentions, we are being led by the Holy Spirit. If we do evil or do what seems to be good with an ulterior motive we are not being led by the Holy Spirit and so we are condemned under/by the Law of Christ (His commandments).

Our evil actions condemn us. Our evil works/deeds actually deny Christ.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

Matthew 12:36-37
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” rsv


We choose each and every day for ourselves whom we shall serve until the moment we die. Do we take up our cross daily and walk by the Spirit of God or do we throw our cross aside and walk by the the flesh (give in to our own evil desires), give in to the devil's temptations, and/or be seduced by the world's pleasures? 1 John 2:16, 1 Peter 5:8, Joshua 24:15


Peter asks the question:

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved,
where will the impious and sinner appear?” rsv

Paul answers the question here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

What can we do to ensure that we members of God's elect?

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. rsv
2 Peter 1:3-11

Jan001 said:

They failed to abide because they chose to sin instead of choosing to listen to the indwelling Holy Spirit's promptings to obey God's commandments. Acts 5:32 The Holy Spirit was given to them to abide in them when they first believed and were baptized according to Matthew 28:19-21.

The Holy Spirit cannot abide in a person who has sinned a mortal sin. The Holy Spirit does continue to abide in a person who commits sin that is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17

If the Holy Spirit is present in the soul of a person at the time of his death, Jesus will grant him eternal life. The Holy Spirit's presence within a person's soul at the time of his death guarantees that he will inherit eternal life. Ephesians 1:13-14

Our initial belief and baptism and our continued obedience to God's commandments gives us continual hope of eternal life. But hope in eternal life is not a guarantee of eternal life. We will fall away from our salvation if we choose to disobey God's commandments and sin mortal sins. If I have not already given you examples of mortal sins, please let me know and I will post them. Some examples of them are listed in Mark 7:20-22.

Mark 7:20-22
And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. rsv


Jesus explains how people can fall away in the Parable about the Sower.

Luke 8:11-15
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience. rsv

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We are sealed with the Holy Spirit til The day of redemption. We can of course greave the Holy Spirit but we will forever have the conviction of our sins from the Holy Spirit once we have received Him. I must’ve misunderstood your position because I thought you were advocating predestination in your previous posts.

Neogaia777 said:

There were some cases in which, God in the OT, that things went in a way in which He wasn't expecting, or did not go the way He thought or anticipated they would go...

How do you explain that...?

Free will is a point of view... From a certain perspective (singular), we do not have it, and from other perspectives (plural), we do...

God Bless!

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You have to be specific, since a general answer may not work. God does and says everything for our benefit.

Neogaia777 said:

The "explanation" is that free will is a perspective, or point of view... From a "certain perspective" (singular), we do not have it, and from other "perspectives" (plural), we do...

God Bless!

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All mature individual adults would have to have just limited autonomous free will to fulfill their earthly objective.

Halbhh said:

But the “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” is exactly the message given over and over, in varied warnings of sufferings, including desolation and outright destruction and enslavement.

Like this : “If you do [certain wrongs] I will [ varied form of loss and destruction] you.”
But, if you turn and instead keep my laws I will relent and not destroy you, and will instead bless you.

If you'd like to see that, I can search up quite a few even before the book of Proverbs, that is even before the boatload of numerous examples via the prophets.

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You have to be careful of the context. The general rule is: "if you are doing bad stuff and you repent I will not punish you" which God can state generally without misleading you,since it is not a specific situation God is referring to. God talking directly to an individual about a specific sin, could not say: "If you repent of this specific sin, I will not punish you for that sin". God can say something like: "You know I will forgive you if you repent".

Proverbs is Solomon's God given wisdom and makes a lot of very wise pronouncements: but they should not all be taken as being God's promises to be true "each time, every time and all the time." Not all stupid people are physically poor as an example.

bling said:

You have to be careful of the context.

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Absolutely.

So...how about have a look:

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

"nor did it enter my mind"

Now, a person having fully read through all the books of the Old Testament (a good way to get some context, right?) will be able to recall (especially if they really paid attention as they read) this one:

Deuteronomy 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Or in the English Standard Version
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.


Which is indeed earlier in time.... so.... It did definitely enter God's mind that it was possible for Israel to do the great evil of child sacrifice....

Definitely, as a absolute certainty.

There's some context, yes?

But....

He says: Jeremiah 19:5 They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

So, what's the meaning you hear in Jer 19:5 then? -- regarding whether God foresaw this instance of this particular evil (burning children in fire, an 'abomination' labeled "even", marking it above most or all others) being done at that moment by Israel?

He did already commanded they not do it.

I take it then that Jer 19:5 implies exactly what it sounds like at first glance -- He did not anticipate they would do this particular great evil at this moment in time.

But, He definitely anticipated they might do this evil at some point in time -- unknown as to if and when -- and commanded them not to do it.

A point of view not just a speculative idea, but instead from reading scripture, and using context.

Hammster said:

So what you are saying is that the verses I posted are just wrong.

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No Scriptures are "wrong". However, a person's interpretations of the Scriptures can be incomplete or mistaken.

RE: Your Scripture Verses:

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
— Proverbs 16:9

The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
— Proverbs 16:1

Many plans are in a man’s heart,
But the counsel of the Lord will stand.
— Proverbs 19:21

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A Semitic manner of speaking is to make it seem like God's permissive will is the same as His sovereign will. God permits man to choose his own path.

This is His sovereign will - that man may freely choose good or evil. God does not force man to choose good. God does not force man to choose evil.

The sovereign God permits man to choose for himself. Joshua 24:13-16

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; rsv


Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. rsv

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God. rsv

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God. rsv


God encourages and helps man to do His will. God does not force man to do evil. God does not prevent man from doing good.

There are times when God does prevent man from doing an evil work/deed by causing a circumstance to make it impossible for him to do the evil or by ending his life before he can do the evil he has planned in his heart.

Hammster said:

I’d be interested in your scriptural support.

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In the Semitic manner of speaking:
If the Holy Spirit is abiding within a person's soul at the time of his physical death, God claims that HE KNOWS him. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit living within him at the time of his physical death, God claims that HE DOES NOT KNOW him.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. rsv

So if God foreknew a person, it means that God foresaw the end of the story of this righteous person's physical life on earth before the person existed. God foresaw that this person would remain faithful in obedience to God's commandments until his physical death and so this person's name was written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv


Revelation 13:7-8
Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. rsv

Hebrews 4:1-4
Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest (eternal life) remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” rsv

If God foreknew a person before the foundation of the world, it means that God knew that the Holy Spirit was still abiding in this not-yet-created person at the time of his future physical death.


The backsliding Christians who do not repent before their death will hear the following words from Jesus when they are judged:

Matthew 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

BNR32FAN said:

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit til The day of redemption. We can of course greave the Holy Spirit but we will forever have the conviction of our sins from the Holy Spirit once we have received Him. I must’ve misunderstood your position because I thought you were advocating predestination in your previous posts.

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We are indeed sealed by the Holy Spirit as soon as we are baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19-20. This is when the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. 2 Corinthians 1:22, Acts 2:38 His presence within our souls at the time of our physical death is our guarantee that we will inherit eternal life.

If we sin mortal sins after our sins have been forgiven by Baptism, our repentance and confession of these sins will restore us to God and then the Holy Spirit will once again abide within us. The Holy Spirit abides in the people who obey Him/His commandments. He does not continue to abide in the people who disobey Him.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him. rsv

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. rsv

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; rsv

Matthew 18:12-14
What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. rsv

Revelation 3:17-19
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent. rsv

Revelation 2:5
Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. rsv

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. rsv