Still confused about the trinity

Bcs90 said:

When I go to pray sometimes I pray to God and then I feel I should be praying to Jesus since I want more faith in Jesus so I suddenly change my way of thinking and go "Dear Jesus" instead of "Dear God" but then I feel guilty to disclude God but then I remember Jesus is God? It's just confusing to me because when Jesus walked the earth he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" so he was speaking to God? But wouldn't that mean he was speaking to himself?
And did Jesus know he was God since he was a baby? Or did he learn it at a certain point? And did he have all the same knowledge that God had? Like when Jesus was in human form do you think he knew exactly how and when the universe came into existence?

Thanks for any help.

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Jesus is God and he was speaking to God. It's probably beyond human nature to comprehend.

Bcs90 said:

But Jesus is God so he is the father too? Calling Jesus the father would be valid and not sinful?
I am a visual person and I have a hard time when praying how to visualize God and Jesus. God is practically everything so what does what imagine when praying to God? What does one visualize if anything? Do you see Jesus' face when praying to him and are confident that is how he looked?

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I speak to God and Jesus receives my prayers. So then praying to Jesus is OK. He is our mediator between God and man.

Bcs90 said:

When I pray to Jesus should I try to not think of a actual physical being (aka some random bearded long haired guy) because I don't want to think of him in blasphemy, I do not know exactly what he looked like when he was in flesh form.. Only ideas of him portrayed from other people's minds or actors. I think perhaps when I pray I should think of what God as a whole is like then, but then what should come to one's mind? Perhaps when I pray I should not try to visualize what God or Jesus look like?

Thank you.

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Sure, when you pray to God you must realize that Jesus is there as God, and not visualizing him is OK. But the truth is that you must realize that Jesus is God, and praying to him is OK.

Bcs90 said:

thank you brother, bless you

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John 14:9

"Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Bcs90 said:

When I go to pray sometimes I pray to God and then I feel I should be praying to Jesus since I want more faith in Jesus so I suddenly change my way of thinking and go "Dear Jesus" instead of "Dear God" but then I feel guilty to disclude God but then I remember Jesus is God? It's just confusing to me because when Jesus walked the earth he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" so he was speaking to God? But wouldn't that mean he was speaking to himself?
And did Jesus know he was God since he was a baby? Or did he learn it at a certain point? And did he have all the same knowledge that God had? Like when Jesus was in human form do you think he knew exactly how and when the universe came into existence?

Thanks for any help.

Click to expand...

There are three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory.

However, the Holy Spirit is always the Holy Spirit and the Son is always the Son and the Father is always the Father, but the three are equal, and of the same substance, and one God.

They never disagree.. but they do, have differing functions, I think. Jesus is the Savior and Messiah - Our Lord who came down from Heaven for the salvation of mankind. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth who leads us into all truth and reminds us of all the things Jesus taught us.

But when Jesus taught us to pray, He told us to say "Our Father, who is in Heaven" And in Romans 8:15 we see:

"The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." "

So that is what how we address God in prayer - we pray to our "Father"

But when we ask we ask in the name of Jesus (as He is Savior, and High Preist)

John 14:13-14
"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

So when I pray and I'm asking God for something - like healing or something, I would pray (for example)

"my Father in heaven, from everlasting to everlasting, I love you, and I praise your name. If it be your will, and I beg you show me your will, would you please heal me of my infirmity... in Jesus name I pray, Amen.

You can do simple like that, but I always make sure to include praise.. and then end with 'in Jesus's name"

I think that's the proper way to pray..

But the Our Father prayer is awesome, until you branch out into more on your own..

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

i see the Father, and Son being One in Spirit.
i believe that Jesus was born just like us - an near empty vessel - all potential but nothing done yet. The main difference however, the bible tells us, is that The Holy Spirit Fathered the Child in the Virgin Mary.

From the beginning of His conscious life Jesus obeyed His Heavenly Father. From the beginning God taught Him perfection through suffering. Yet already at age 30 Jesus was baptised with His Spirit completely and publicly and our Heavenly Father showed Him to be His Son in whom He was well pleased.

The Apostle calls Him the Word incarnated - so He lived the Scriptures (O.T ) perfectly and faithfully portrayed His Heavenly Father to the people around Him.

i believe that Jesus portrayed His Heavenly Father perfectly especially in His loving self, laying His life down for His friends captivated by the wicked lies of satan, unholy and defiled, but still His Father's offspring, so He died to pay their price. Just as the truth of God Himself died out of us sinners, but still giving us sinful humans existence in the Truth of His Being. In every way Jesus portrayed The Father to us.

i don't think that Jesus pried after all the scientific truths we Westerns are used to prying after, but He may have, His knowledge of the Torah was astonishing even at 13 years of age, the bible tells us. Personally i think that He only choose to know His Heavenly Father as He revealed Himself to be day in day out in all His different Ways. Jesus was a very humble man who took no delight in outsmarting any one but wanted to demonstrate Israel's God to the Jews.

This would have been very hard at times because Jesus' human nature would have opened Him to demonic attacks from a very young age onwards. Yet we know that His love for The Father helped Him overcome them all, and in the end satan as well. Satan in person was first beaten in the desert, and then at Golgotha, and then again at Christ's resurrections and with the pouring out of His Spirit on all believers.

So The Father and The Son are distinct beings perfectly united in The Spirit.

John 14 explains how this concept of trinity works

We have the counsellor/advocate John 14:15-17. (The Holy Spirit brings us faith in Christ.)
We have Jesus our Lord and Saviour. John 14:20. (The Son washes us with His blood.)
and we have The Father, who alone is All in All. John 14:23.(The Father receives us back as His rightful Children.)

The Trinity in our hearts when we learn to love like Jesus did and be part of this glorious oneness the Scripture speaks about.

Peace

John 17:20-26
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Bcs90 said:

When I go to pray sometimes I pray to God and then I feel I should be praying to Jesus since I want more faith in Jesus so I suddenly change my way of thinking and go "Dear Jesus" instead of "Dear God" but then I feel guilty to disclude God but then I remember Jesus is God? It's just confusing to me because when Jesus walked the earth he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" so he was speaking to God? But wouldn't that mean he was speaking to himself?
And did Jesus know he was God since he was a baby? Or did he learn it at a certain point? And did he have all the same knowledge that God had? Like when Jesus was in human form do you think he knew exactly how and when the universe came into existence?

Thanks for any help.

Click to expand...

When we say Jesus is God, we mean what He is in His substance, nature, or being. In the same way that if I say "George is human" I am using "human" to describe what George is, not who George is.

Here's how the Athanasian Creed puts it,

"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance.

For the Person of the Father is distinct, the Person of the Son is distinct, and the Holy Spirit is distinct.

But the Deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.

The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, the Holy Spirit is infinite.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal.
There are not three eternals, but one Eternal. There are not three uncreateds or infinites, but one Uncreated and Infinite.

Likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty. But there are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Not three lords, but one Lord."

It's not easy to wrap one's head around, because there's simply no way to compare this to anything. God is not like anything else, we have no frame of reference to compare the Trinity.

So don't fret if you still have some trouble wrestling with it, it's arguably one of the most complicated and difficult theological ideas in Christianity. It doesn't help that it's also one of the most misunderstood and improperly taught doctrines in Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

Jeshu said:

i see the Father, and Son being One in Spirit.
i believe that Jesus was born just like us - an near empty vessel - all potential but nothing done yet. The main difference however, the bible tells us, is that The Holy Spirit Fathered the Child in the Virgin Mary.

From the beginning of His conscious life Jesus obeyed His Heavenly Father. From the beginning God taught Him perfection through suffering. Yet already at age 30 Jesus was baptised with His Spirit completely and publicly and our Heavenly Father showed Him to be His Son in whom He was well pleased.

The Apostle calls Him the Word incarnated - so He lived the Scriptures (O.T ) perfectly and faithfully portrayed His Heavenly Father to the people around Him.

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This is completely and utterly wrong and heretical. Where did you hear such things?

-CryptoLutheran

This may be out there but I hope it helps.

Only God can claim to have always been. Three can claim to have always been. The Father, The Word, and the Spirit that hovers over the deep. If it were possible that four could claim to have always been then four would be one God.

The three divine persons are distinct only to themselves. Human intellect is unable to apprehend God as three. Only with the help of Divine Revelation can man know the Trinity.

The following is Augustinian thought.

To love an other one must know an other.
Only God can know God fully.
God knowing God is God.
The Son of God.
A True Son of the Father.

Jesus taught;
Only the Father knows the Son and only the Son knows the Father.

Only God can love God fully
God loving God is the union of the Father and Son and is the Spirit of God.
God is Love.

Love requires an other.

Bcs90 said:

But Jesus is God so he is the father too? Calling Jesus the father would be valid and not sinful?

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No. Jesus is not the Father. You said it in the beginning--the Trinity is difficult to comprehend. But we are not required to understand it, just to know that it is the nature of our God.

As for praying, pray to Christ or to the Father as you wish, but you might consider that Jesus himself said to pray to the Father.

I am a visual person and I have a hard time when praying how to visualize God and Jesus. God is practically everything so what does what imagine when praying to God? What does one visualize if anything? Do you see Jesus' face when praying to him and are confident that is how he looked?

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I try not to do that, and I don't seem to lack anything because of it, but whatever imagery comes to your mind, I don't know that it matters.

Bcs90 said:

Perhaps when I pray I should not try to visualize what God or Jesus look like?

Thank you.

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Seems that would be best. Even Moses did not get a good look.

M-Bob

Bcs90 said:

When I go to pray sometimes I pray to God and then I feel I should be praying to Jesus since I want more faith in Jesus so I suddenly change my way of thinking and go "Dear Jesus" instead of "Dear God" but then I feel guilty to disclude God but then I remember Jesus is God? It's just confusing to me because when Jesus walked the earth he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" so he was speaking to God? But wouldn't that mean he was speaking to himself?
And did Jesus know he was God since he was a baby? Or did he learn it at a certain point? And did he have all the same knowledge that God had? Like when Jesus was in human form do you think he knew exactly how and when the universe came into existence?

Thanks for any help.

Click to expand...

Hi Bcs90,

You are not alone. The topic of the trinity is very confusing to many and even on our best days, we still don't fully get it. But nonetheless...

The Scriptures declare that there is only one God, who exists eternally in three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each Person within the Trinity is co-equal, co-powerful, co-eternal and 100% God, yet separate and distinct from one another. The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son; yet they are one God.

There have been many attempts made over the years to describe the mysterious dynamic of the Trinity in a way that finite human minds can understand and comprehend. A helpful analogy on the topic can be found in the nature of our earthly sun. There is only one sun in the earth’s atmosphere, with only one visible manifestation of that single sun; yet it consists of three distinct elements: energy, heat and light.

1. You cannot see the intense energy of the sun, but without the sun’s energy there would not be life on earth. In the same way, you cannot see God the Father and live, for He lives in unapproachable light; but without Him, life would not exist (1 Timothy 6:16; Genesis 1 and 2)
2. You cannot see the heat which powerfully radiates from the sun, but you can personally feel it and see its effects upon the earth. In the same way, you cannot see the Holy Spirit, but you can see and feel the evidence and effects of His presence (John 3:5-8).
3. You can see a physical, visible manifestation of the sun’s invisible energy and heat when you look up into the sky; it's an enormous bright light, held together by its own gravity. In the same way, Jesus Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12), the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of His glory and exact representation of His nature, who upholds all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3).

Therefore, God is one God, yet He is manifested in three distinct Persons, each with their own specific role within the Trinity; the culmination of which we will not fully and completely understand until we see Him face to face in eternity. Therefore, because the Bible clearly teaches that God is a triune God, and because the truths of God’s Word are never dependent upon whether or not we understand them in order to be true, we accept them by faith regardless of our understanding, because, “God is not a man that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19).

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Bcs90,

You are not alone. The topic of the trinity is very confusing to many and even on our best days, we still don't fully get it. But nonetheless...

The Scriptures declare that there is only one God, who exists eternally in three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each Person within the Trinity is co-equal, co-powerful, co-eternal and 100% God, yet separate and distinct from one another. The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son; yet they are one God.

There have been many attempts made over the years to describe the mysterious dynamic of the Trinity in a way that finite human minds can understand and comprehend. A helpful analogy on the topic can be found in the nature of our earthly sun. There is only one sun in the earth’s atmosphere, with only one visible manifestation of that single sun; yet it consists of three distinct elements: energy, heat and light.

1. You cannot see the intense energy of the sun, but without the sun’s energy there would not be life on earth. In the same way, you cannot see God the Father and live, for He lives in unapproachable light; but without Him, life would not exist (1 Timothy 6:16; Genesis 1 and 2)
2. You cannot see the heat which powerfully radiates from the sun, but you can personally feel it and see its effects upon the earth. In the same way, you cannot see the Holy Spirit, but you can see and feel the evidence and effects of His presence (John 3:5-8).
3. You can see a physical, visible manifestation of the sun’s invisible energy and heat when you look up into the sky; it's an enormous bright light, held together by its own gravity. In the same way, Jesus Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12), the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of His glory and exact representation of His nature, who upholds all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3).

Therefore, God is one God, yet He is manifested in three distinct Persons, each with their own specific role within the Trinity; the culmination of which we will not fully and completely understand until we see Him face to face in eternity. Therefore, because the Bible clearly teaches that God is a triune God, and because the truths of God’s Word are never dependent upon whether or not we understand them in order to be true, we accept them by faith regardless of our understanding, because, “God is not a man that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19).

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Your post reminded me of this analogy.

The Sun is the Father. The rays of light that descend to earth are the Son. The warmth on your face is the Holy Spirit

Bcs90 said:

Thanks for the replies. another thing I wonder especially when I'm praying is if it matters which to pray to? or maybe to be sure I should start my prayers by "Dear Father, Jesus and Holy spirit"? They are all one but Jesus said no one can come to the father without going through him? But Jesus also said to pray to the father. Confusing lol. and why do people call the father and holy spirit persons if they are not humans? maybe Jesus I could see being called a person.

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Hi Mcs90,

I wouldn't get too hung up on prayer technicalities. Just keep it simple. You can pray to the Lord directly or you can pray to the Father, in Jesus' name. Both are acceptable biblically.

When Jesus said, "...no one can come to the Father except through Me," He was not speaking of how to pray. He was answering a question Thomas asked Him in John 14:5 regarding the way to heaven - to which Jesus responded that He is the way, the truth and the life...and no one can come to the Father except through Him.

As far as saying the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, I like what James R. White said, “It is vitally important that we recognize the difference between the words “Being” and “Person”...Being is what makes something what it is. Person is what makes someone who he or she is.” (Loving the Trinity, [Christian Research Journal, Volume 21/ Issue 4]).

Hope this helps.