Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation
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You are seeing something in Romans 5 that is simply not there.
Romans 5:1-2 talks about how we have access to Christ and by faith we stand.
Romans 5:2-5 talks about how we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, and we glory in tribulations knowing that tribulation brings patience, experience, and then hope. This hope makes us not ashamed because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.
But what you fail to understand is that the Holy Ghost is given to those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
What you fail to understand is that Jesus said,
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).
What you fail to understand is that Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
What you fail to understand is that Paul said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith. Yet, James 2:24 says,
"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24).
James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
So a true faith will always have works.
The Scriptures say the just will LIVE by faith, but if any man draws back, God says that His soul will have no pleasure in such a person (See Hebrews 10:38).
The Bible says if any man draws back, God will not have pleasure in Him, but yet you appear to be saying the opposite of that.
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Of course, it's true.
But, the occasional sin when repented of is mucho less damaging than habitual sin.
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Acts 5:32
"And we are His witnesses to these things,
and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
The problem with this one is that people say
... to obey Jesus is to believe in Him.
This verse is more rock solid, IMO ...
John 14:23
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
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Which commands?
Yes we have access to Jesus only through faith- not works! Remember any saint can boldly approach the throne and find grace to help in time of need!
YOu should read the rest of the chapter!
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
!
So by your theology- none of us are saved- because we have all disobeyed Jesus- some more than others
Well you have a real problem then. For salvation I trust Pauls word! To show that my faith is validated- I trust James words. You fail to understand that justification at salvation is a one time act. But justification in our experience is an ongoing process.
I never said different! Saving faith will produce "Godly deeds". But to say that if we are disobedient and God has no pleasure in our disobedience= loss of salvation is just inane.
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So you believe in salvation by works then.
Have you left all to follow Jesus?
Have you sold everything you have , gave it to the poor to follow Jesus?
How many times have you failed to obey commands? Why should your multiple failures still allow you to still be saved when someone else you consider having lost their salvation?
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so you must believe in sinless perfection the moment one is reborn.
Other wise- how do you justify your thorns and figs from the masters grape vine?
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so you hold to some form of the old Catholic mortal/venial sin stuff.
but continous sanctification does exist in eternal security. A person is once for all justified and redeemed and made complete, and God is then in the process of making them to be what God has declared them to be. This is what is known as positional and experiential truth.
OUr position is spelled out in Scripture and our experience is generalized in Scripture as exhortations, encouragements and warnings.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Sanctified is in the present passive participle which should be translated thusly:
For by one offering He hath perfected for ever- those who He is sanctifying!
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Because he sincerely repents of each sin to the best of His ability.
It's all about the condition of one's heart.
To refuse to repent of sins is deadly.
To be faithless re: repenting is deadly.
To believe all of your sins have been paid for is deadly.
etc.
Are you spiritually dead?
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Phil W
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Yes, I do.
As we are reborn of God's seed, how can we be anything but perfectly sinless?
His seed cannot bear wicked fruit.
Grape vines don't grow thorns or figs.
A seed can only bring forth after its own kind.
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No. I don't believe in Works Alone Salvationism (without God's grace through faith). I believe salvation is "God's grace through Faith + Works of Faith."
James says, "...show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18).
Side Note: James says we are justified by works (James 2:24), and he uses Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac as an example (James 2:21). If you were to read Genesis 22, no human was present to watch Abraham offering his son Isaac. So this means Abraham was justified by his works before God and not men.
In either case, James is saying that faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and a belief alone is like that of demons (James 2:19). This should be no surprise because God is good and holy and He cannot agree with any man's grievous sin that His Word clearly condemns.
You said:
First, Zacchaeus was only willing to give away half of his goods to the poor, and yet Jesus accepted this and said salvation had come to his house that day.
8 "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham." (Luke 19:8-9).
Second, we can shed some more light on Jesus’ instructions for those who preach the gospel by comparing Luke 9 with Luke 22…
1 Then he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to cure sicknesses.
2 And so he sent them forth to preach the kingdom of God and to heal,
3 and he said to them: “Carry nothing for the trip, neither staff nor food pouch, nor bread nor silver; neither have two undergarments.
4 But wherever you enter into a home, stay there and leave from there.’ (Luke 9:1-4)
35 He also said to them: “When I sent you forth without purse and food pouch and sandals, you did not want for anything, did you?” They said: “No!”
36 Then he said to them: “But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch; and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one’ (Luke 22:35-36).
2 And so he sent them forth to preach the kingdom of God and to heal,
3 and he said to them: “Carry nothing for the trip, neither staff nor food pouch, nor bread nor silver; neither have two undergarments.
4 But wherever you enter into a home, stay there and leave from there.’ (Luke 9:1-4)
35 He also said to them: “When I sent you forth without purse and food pouch and sandals, you did not want for anything, did you?” They said: “No!”
36 Then he said to them: “But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch; and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one’ (Luke 22:35-36).
Jesus commissioned his newly empowered friends neither to take any provisions nor any silver/money while they are on an evangelical journey. He promises them that they will be cared for by those who will listen to the good news.
At his last day on earth however, he warns them that the climate for them will change, that things will get rougher after his departure and he warns them not to rely on the charity they experienced on their earlier campaigns. He tells them to take their purses/wallets, a food pouch with provisions. So this was the last advice he gave for those who preach the gospel.
Three, we should consider the lifestyle of the believers just after Jesus died and was risen. We read in Acts of the Apostles 4…
32 "Moreover, the multitude of those who had believed had one heart and soul, and not even one would say that any of the things he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common.
33 Also, with great power the apostles continued giving forth the witness concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and undeserved kindness in large measure was upon them all.
34 In fact, there was not one in need among them; for those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold
35 and they would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one, just as he would have the need."
(Acts of the Apostles 4:32-35).
33 Also, with great power the apostles continued giving forth the witness concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and undeserved kindness in large measure was upon them all.
34 In fact, there was not one in need among them; for those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold
35 and they would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one, just as he would have the need."
(Acts of the Apostles 4:32-35).
Verse 35 also shows that all received from the apostles what they needed, both those who contributed and those who had nothing to contribute.
Let us now consider the cases of Ananias and Sapphira…
"3 But Peter said: Ananias, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field?
4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God."
(Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4) (NWT).
4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God."
(Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4) (NWT).
The sin was not that he held back some of the price of the field. The sin was that he represented falsely that he was contributing the entire price of the field.
Four, believers (after the cross) owned homes:
"and to Apphia, our sister, and to Archippus, our fellow soldier, and to the congregation that is in your house:" (Philemon 1:2).
"But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people." (Acts of the Apostles 17:15).
"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" (2 John 1:10).
"The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:" (2 Timothy 1:16).
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house." (Colossians 4:15).
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." (1 Corinthians 16:19).
"And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him," (Acts of the Apostles 28:30).
You said:
The Bible teaches that you can overcome grievous sin (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, lying, cursing, etc.), but that a believer can stumble on rare occasion on their road to recovery. Why else would 2 Corinthians 7:1 tell you to cleanse yourself of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God? Anyways, the difference would be sort of like:
(a) The alcoholic who joins a drug program to overcome his sin of alcoholism and he stumbles on rare occasion before he eventually puts away his drinking for good.
vs.
(b) The alcoholic who joins a drug program to please a family member and yet they have no real intention of ever stopping in drinking themselves into oblivion. They think that it is impossible to stop.
vs.
(b) The alcoholic who joins a drug program to please a family member and yet they have no real intention of ever stopping in drinking themselves into oblivion. They think that it is impossible to stop.
What you fail to understand is that we are not alone and that with God all things are possible. A believer in Jesus Christ can overcome their grievous sin (even if they were to stumble on rare occasion before they finally conquer serious sin in their lives). Sometimes this may take a long time for a believer, and others it can be quick. It depends on the individual and their heart in desiring to follow the Lord out of their love for Him. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Folks in your camp say that you will always break His commandments. But what does that say of their love for Jesus (according to the word of Jesus)? Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).
I hope what I said here helps;
And may God's goodness be upon you today.
Source used for only a few paragraphs within this post:
True Bible Code.
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Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.
Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).
"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).
(Psalms 19:12).
Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:
#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.
#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).
#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.
#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.
Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.
But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.
#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).
#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.
#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.
Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.
But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).
Side Note:
Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.
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Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).
"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).
Examples of Grievous Sin:
#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).
#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).
#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).
#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).
#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).
#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).
#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).
#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).
#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).
#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).
#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).
#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).
#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).
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Guilt by association is not always the best way to determine the truth. Just because Catholics believe in the Trinity, does not mean the Trinity is not true. Anyways, see post #254, and post #255 on a biblical explanation on "grievous sin" vs. "faults or minor transgressions."
As for Hebrews 10:14:
Well, you have to read that in balance with Hebrews 10:26 that says that if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10:14 is referring to how Christ's sacrifice has forever perfected them who are either sanctified purely in their heart whereby they will not justify sin and they will in time overcome it, or it is referring to the believer who has gone through the Sanctification Process in this life successfully. For Romans 8:13 says if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die (die spiritually), but if one puts to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) via the Spirit, they will live (live spiritually).
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No but as the Catholics are the ones who created the concept of mortal and venial sin you willingly associate yourself with their concept.
And since you have been saved- how many times did you willingly sin?
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I notice you do like the watchtower, add things in parenthesis that are not in the Scriptures. I know you say they are implied, but what makes your implications any more right than any others implications?
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So instead of the ten written in stone which is a ministry of death- you have 9 commandments!
So you have never looked at a woman lustfully?
You have never looked back?
C'mon man you ain't as holy as you think.
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