Free Will and God’s Desire

Yahkov said:

In what way was salvation offered differently from Abel, Job, and Abraham to the formation of Israel? From what I have gathered in my studies, salvation has always been through faith.

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Jesus said; ““You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NASB95)

So even today we become members of Biblical Israel through faith. In place of the unbelievers God broke off. If you want to delve deeper, Jesus IS Israel to whom Abel, Job and all other believers were attached by faith.

I used to think as many of you do, was a strong believer and proponent or "free will" or having my own will and other people having theirs, ect... Till I learned that was false... Rather brutally too, and I hope many of you don't have to find out or learn it that way...

"Do you believe in "fate" Neo...?" "No"... "Why not"...? "I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life..." "I know exactly what you mean"...

And in the end, he learned he was not, even though being "The One" didn't matter, they were all of them, all bound up in it, just as we are... And him even more especially so, being "The One"...

I didn't like the idea that I was not in control of my life, or destiny or fate, or whatever, but just because I didn't like the idea, didn't make the idea false or not true, cause it is true, ect, and I'm not and we are not, ect... I also didn't like the idea that people may not be 100% totally responsible for (supposedly) their own actions or decision making (supposedly), ect, also... Couldn't reconcile it with my own ideas or what I thought I knew or what I thought must be true at the time, or at that, or those times, ect... But that did not make it "not true", cause, later on, I found out it was true, and not false, and I was "wrong"...

I found out in my own life, by God's personally showing me, through a lot of things I hope you people don't have to go through to find out...

That most of (supposedly) "my own" decisions, choices, ect, were not actually "my own" a great deal of the time, if not most, and if not all of the time, ect, all along, ect...

Anyway, I hope the rest of you "rebels" don't have to find this out the way I did, or had to...

God Bless!

Yahkov said:

Interesting this comes up. There appears to be conflict with this position as well with the passage that was shared in the original post.

I just don’t understand why we make this complicated. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 states that God desires all people to be saved. Why are we teaching that this doesn’t mean everyone? The passage also states that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all people. Why are we teaching that this also doesn’t mean everyone? The passage literally states all people.

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You are reading the passage as a 21st century gentile. You need a Jewish understanding to understand Paul.

Yahkov said:

I get where you are going, but it still doesn’t answer the question. If God desires all Jews and gentiles to be saved, why aren’t they? You said God doesn’t want everyone to be saved. Then you say all men in the passage means Jews and gentiles. Is that not everyone?

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If he desired this, it would happen. You do not understand how it all plays out yet.

Yahkov said:

“As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God's work--which is by faith.” - 1 Timothy 1:3-4

“And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.” 1 Timothy 2:7



Well you already stated that all men in this passage = Jews and gentiles. So again I’ll ask, why is this not everyone? So let’s say I’ll go along with what you are saying, that salvation was only for the Jews in the Old Testament and now in the New Testament salvation is for both Jews and gentiles. Either way we see that God desires them both to be saved now. Why aren’t they?

Your explanation would make more sense if there was a group of people that were neither Jew nor gentile, but obviously there is no such thing. And even if there was, I still wouldn’t agree that “all people” does not mean everybody.

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Did God fail if all are not saved? Or are things just as he planned?

Dave L said:

Did God fail if all are not saved? Or are things just as he planned?

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How can we know guys...? But we can hold out the hope, right...?

Kind of hard to do in this world with all that we see around us, but hope is important, right...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

How can we know guys...? But we can hold out the hope, right...?

God Bless!

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If God can fail, he isn't God.

Dave L said:

If God can fail, he isn't God.

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If all are not saved, why does that have to mean He failed...? Cause I don't see it that way, I just see that things are going just the way He intended them to go, ect...

Oh yes, the whole "if he desires it" part, right...? Well, I already told you guys that that passage is talking about the desire(s) of God the Son, who Himself said that He didn't know, but was up to the or His Father, and His Father, and our Father God alone...

Or wouldn't know until after He ascended, ect, and then would not be able to, or be allowed to let us know that yet, till we get there, ect...

God Bless!

Yahkov said:

No God did not. Because mankind has free will.

“For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD, but he who fails to find me injures himself; all who hate me love death." - Proverbs 8:35-36

I don’t see your stance being consistent. This could be a misunderstanding on my part. So I’d like to back up a bit. You have stated that all men = Jews and gentiles correct? This passage states that God desires for these “all men” to be saved. So we see God’s desire and we see who “all men” are. What sort of Jewish understanding do I need to comprehend that Jews and gentiles is somehow not everyone?

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If God desires all to be saved and they are not, he failed if your interpretation is correct, which it is not.

Yahkov said:

Ok, well maybe let’s take a different approach. What is God’s desire in this passage?

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“First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” 1 Timothy 2:1–6 (NASB95)

All men as promised to Abraham = all nations blessed in him. Not each individual, since scripture limit's Christ's atonement to the elect only.

Yahkov said:

This is a huge speculation, taking what I see as a logical route in understanding. I am not trying to deliver anything dogmatic with this: If mankind does not have free will and is acting, thinking, moving, doing, all within what has already been established by God, what man would be a sinner? All would be in obedience with what the Lord has predestined us to do.

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Like I said, it may just be that some are just not meant for Heaven, is all maybe, IDK...?

That some might be sinners for the saints, ect... And after that are just done, or stay in places like here, ect... While we do not, ect...

Maybe anyway...? A lot of it or about it can be speculated at this point...

God Bless!

Yahkov said:

“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” - 1 John 2:2

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - John 3:16-17

I don’t believe you and I will find common ground on this one. Thank you for your replies.

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Jesus told the pharisees he did not die for them in John 10. And he purchased the Church with his blood Acts 20:28. Also he gave himself a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. So whole world = nations, not individuals.