Liturgical terminology

Rosie Q

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So far, in my usual Western Christisn context, the word liturgy has usually referred to how a service or mass is arranged. What is said, sung and done. What's in the book, but also things like timing. How the priests performs the elevation (if at all). Mass celebrated versus populum (facing the people) or ad orientem (facing east). Procession or no procession. What prayers and hymns are used. Etc.

Now, in this new context, liturgy usually means "divine liturgy". But there are also other services. So what do you say, if if you want to discuss differences in the services that, for instance, Greeks and Russians perform on Saturday nights which aren't, in Orthodox terminology, actually liturgies? I would have called them liturgical differences. But can I say that, in Orthodox context?
 

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There are usually three services, Vespers, Matins and Divine Liturgy which are actually one complete service and are experienced back to back in a Vigil service, whereas usually Vespers is performed the evening before Matins and Divine Liturgy.
 
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The services on Saturday evenings on a parish will usually be Vespers.

My SF does a full cycle of services so they also do Compline later in the evening, etc.

Each one has a name. Most are prayer services (and include hymns, etc.). The Divine Liturgy means that the Eucharist is consecrated.
 
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Rosie Q

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I probably explain myself badly.

"Liturgy" is a word that almost all Christians use. They don't call their services "divine liturgy" but liturgy is how the service works. Pentecostsls may say their services "have no liturgy" but they are wrong. Those meetings have a beginning and an end, and go through well planned stages, with different meanings. That is a very much accepted meaning of the word liturgy. It's the first meaning mentioned on Wiktionary (a predetermined or prescribed set of rituals that are performed, usually by a religion).

Every time I try to speak about liturgy in this more general sense with Orthodox people - at least on the net, where communication consists solely of words - I just don't know what word to use, since "liturgy" typically refers to the Divine liturgy.

What do you say, when you speak about liturgy in this more general sense? (Do you ever?)
 
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ArmyMatt

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There are usually three services, Vespers, Matins and Divine Liturgy which are actually one complete service and are experienced back to back in a Vigil service, whereas usually Vespers is performed the evening before Matins and Divine Liturgy.

don't forget them Hours.
 
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Rosie Q

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The services on Saturday evenings on a parish will usually be Vespers.

My SF does a full cycle of services so they also do Compline later in the evening, etc.

Each one has a name. Most are prayer services (and include hymns, etc.). The Divine Liturgy means that the Eucharist is consecrated.

I hope nobody takes offense, but I will avoid the words Mattins, Vespers and Compline. They are not used around here, as far as I can see, and they make me confused. The parishes in this country (those that have these prayer services) I think use different names depending on tradition and/or jurisdiction. The word "my" parish uses for Saturday night service is correct in that tradition, but I learned on Orthodoxwiki.org that in most traditions the word means something slightly different. So here I'll avoid that word. It would just create confusion. Whether you'd call it Vespers or Compline, I have no clue.

I know of at least one parish in this country where they say Vespers etc. I feel weird about it. Please don't take offense! I don't mind you using it, but in a country dominated by Lutherans "vespers" mostly means something done in gregorian chant, always containing the Magnificat, always beginning with a certain chanted "dialogue". I suppose this is why the local orthodox churches use words in their own old languages, rather than Latin derived words.

Then of course the roots of the Eastern prayer services and the Western Liturgy of the Hours are the same. The Psalms, the biblical Canticles ... I am very happy about that, really. Content in many ways similar. The structure vastly different, from what I've seen so far
 
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ArmyMatt

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I probably explain myself badly.

"Liturgy" is a word that almost all Christians use. They don't call their services "divine liturgy" but liturgy is how the service works. Pentecostsls may say their services "have no liturgy" but they are wrong. Those meetings have a beginning and an end, and go through well planned stages, with different meanings. That is a very much accepted meaning of the word liturgy. It's the first meaning mentioned on Wiktionary (a predetermined or prescribed set of rituals that are performed, usually by a religion).

Every time I try to speak about liturgy in this more general sense with Orthodox people - at least on the net, where communication consists solely of words - I just don't know what word to use, since "liturgy" typically refers to the Divine liturgy.

What do you say, when you speak about liturgy in this more general sense? (Do you ever?)

typically when we speak broadly, it's the Liturgical cycle or the daily cycle, since the Divine Liturgy is the focus.
 
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Rosie Q

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plus the Hours.

which are strung together, several in a row, at the wrong hours!

well that way it is easier to actually do them! The Western church may have remnants in cathedrals, but often not much. Mostly a monastic thing, in the West.
 
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Andrei D

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Yes - there is a specific service that is named the Divine Liturgy. Yes we use the adjective "liturgical" to refer to the broader context of the public services of the Church, including things like "liturgical cycle", "liturgical language", "liturgical texts" etc.

There are more "private" and less formal services that we generally refer to as "ierurgies" but I haven't seen the term used in English too much. This could include blessing of various objects, houses, of the nature itself, prayers over a dying or sick person, etc. "Liturgical language" is used in these services too, so to say.

You can either refer to the service by its name if you know it or just say "so and so service".

Is any of this what you are talking about? I am confused.

I hope nobody takes offense, but I will avoid the words Mattins, Vespers and Compline.

Please see my post in the other thread you opened
 
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I had actually wondered why we use words derived from Latin through much of Orthodoxy (not all).

If you're looking for a generic word in order to communicate, can you just say "services" or "Church services"?
 
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Rosie Q

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Yes - there is a specific service that is named the Divine Liturgy. Yes we use the adjective "liturgical" to refer to the broader context of the public services of the Church, including things like "liturgical cycle", "liturgical language", "liturgical texts" etc.

Thank you. This is what I'm after.

It seems you don't discuss these things a lot, though. Not compared with us Protestants who update and change things in quite another tempo. We have to talk a lot about liturgy, in the broad sense.
 
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ArmyMatt

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which are strung together, several in a row, at the wrong hours!

well that way it is easier to actually do them! The Western church may have remnants in cathedrals, but often not much. Mostly a monastic thing, in the West.

usually not strung together in my experience, aside from 3rd and 6th.
 
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Andrei D

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Thank you. This is what I'm after.

It seems you don't discuss these things a lot, though. Not compared with us Protestants who update and change things in quite another tempo. We have to talk a lot about liturgy, in the broad sense.

There is change. The typical joke is that we can always point to how we begrudgingly added "and through the air" to the Great Litany :)
 
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Rosie Q

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Anastasia, I guess it has to do with the fact that in the US there is established, American, not ethnical Orthodoxy. What small tries that have been done here of "non ethnical Orthodoxy" is under the jurisdiction of the bishop of one of the "ethnical" church. It's not the same. The latin terminology is equally wrong for all of you! plus doesn't sound like gibberish in other people's ears.
 
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Rosie Q

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There is change. The typical joke is that we can always point to how we begrudgingly added "and through the air" to the Great Litany :)

And your joke here, I suppose, is that this happened like 200 years ago or so?

At least some priests here (there's no deacon) omitts "the doors". (I've asked). Oh the horror. :)
 
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Rosie Q

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usually not strung together in my experience, aside from 3rd and 6th.

Vigil actually is a Latin word too. Strangly, we use that. Although it actually isn't a vigil - a wake - at all! Quoting orthodoxwiki

"In Slavic tradition, it does not last all night but normally includes Vespers (or Great Compline), Mattins and the First Hour, and it is the standard Saturday evening service."

When they explained it to me, it was "evening prayer + morning prayer + first hour". All done in the evening. OK OK you others are innocent! but "my" Orthodox people do this. I think they have a slightly weird perception of time ^^ are the Slavic traditions the only ones that perform morning prayers in the evening?

Anastasia, yeah. Now I mentioned that silly vigil after all. But mostly I'll probably say "Saturday evening service" in English. And "vigilia" when speaking my language (although that word is actually Latin).
 
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prodromos

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Vigil actually is a Latin word too. Strangly, we use that. Although it actually isn't a vigil - a wake - at all! Quoting orthodoxwiki

"In Slavic tradition, it does not last all night but normally includes Vespers (or Great Compline), Mattins and the First Hour, and it is the standard Saturday evening service."

When they explained it to me, it was "evening prayer + morning prayer + first hour". All done in the evening. OK OK you others are innocent! but "my" Orthodox people do this. I think they have a slightly weird perception of time ^^ are the Slavic traditions the only ones that perform morning prayers in the evening?

Anastasia, yeah. Now I mentioned that silly vigil after all. But mostly I'll probably say "Saturday evening service" in English. And "vigilia" when speaking my language (although that word is actually Latin).
I could have used the terms we use, but I'm not sure how many people would recognise terms like "esperinos", "orthros" and "agripnia" :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Vigil actually is a Latin word too. Strangly, we use that. Although it actually isn't a vigil - a wake - at all! Quoting orthodoxwiki

"In Slavic tradition, it does not last all night but normally includes Vespers (or Great Compline), Mattins and the First Hour, and it is the standard Saturday evening service."

When they explained it to me, it was "evening prayer + morning prayer + first hour". All done in the evening. OK OK you others are innocent! but "my" Orthodox people do this. I think they have a slightly weird perception of time ^^ are the Slavic traditions the only ones that perform morning prayers in the evening?

Anastasia, yeah. Now I mentioned that silly vigil after all. But mostly I'll probably say "Saturday evening service" in English. And "vigilia" when speaking my language (although that word is actually Latin).

it doesn't really matter when they are done, only that they are done.

and technically, since the liturgical day starts at night, putting the morning service after the evening one does make it correct.

you get used to it, don't worry.
 
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There is change. The typical joke is that we can always point to how we begrudgingly added "and through the air" to the Great Litany :)
I never heard the joke but I figured it out and amused myself when listening to the litanies. :D
 
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