How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

Stephen Douglas said:

And some just plain reject it altogether. You can’t deny that can you?

Doug

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All mature adults will need help sometime in the life, but most refuse to accept it.

Halbhh said:

I've learned in actual conversations that very many have read or heard of quite a few words of Jesus, but not most, and few can recall most or all. But, they've read enough possibly, you'd think, right?

What makes one person able to hear Christ's words and another not? I think one key part of the answer is just as these verses say:


6 For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly,
but the haughty he knows from afar.

34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.

23 One's pride will bring him low,
but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;

6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

5..Clothe yourselves, all of you,with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5
(and look at the range this comes from, throughout the Bible)

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So, some folks are just proud and scornful and others are humble. Yet, Paul tells us that we were ALL children deserving of God’s wrath and the enemy of God. Sounds like we were, at some point, proud and scornful. What changed and why? Why do some hold to their autonomy and maintain their enmity with God while others surrender to His goodness?

Doug

bling said:

All mature adults will need help sometime in the life, but most refuse to accept it.

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I certainly could not agree more with this statement. It just does not address my question.

Doug

Halbhh said:

It's not crucial as best I can tell how one thinks on this, as long as they know they must remain in Christ, by absorbing His words and by remaining in Him bearing true fruit Bible Gateway passage: John 15:1-17 - New International Version

So, we could discuss as just trying to learn more about it, if you like. I wonder if you've read fully Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version It's representative of a very large number of events, really most of the events of the Old Testament. God intervenes and changes the outcome, so that things turn out differently then they would have without His intervention to change what's going to happen. Over and over.

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Right, a vast majority of things are under God's control.

Stephen Douglas said:

I certainly could not agree more with this statement. It just does not address my question.

Doug

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Than what are you talking about rejecting?

Hammster said:

Start further back. John 6 says who are His. John 10 shows that only His sheep hear and follow. And if you don’t hear and follow it’s because you aren’t one of His.

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Reading all the Gospel of John all the way through, without hurrying, but taking all the time in the world, to hear it all, is the best thing.

Instead of saying to you start further back in chapter 3 (which is indeed even more helpful on this question of who responds), really I think it's best to take all this gospel as a whole. We can understand what John chapter 3 says better if we've also heard such as Mark chapter 4 and/or the like passages.

Hammster said:

Start further back. John 6 says who are His. John 10 shows that only His sheep hear and follow. And if you don’t hear and follow it’s because you aren’t one of His.

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That is why I read Romans 8:1,
'There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. '

In this way, that they do not walk according to the flesh, this is not personal choice, you do not choose to walk according to the flesh if your born of God, you are led by the Holy Spirit, you hear Christ and follow Him because your one of His sheep.

But some will say this is their personal choice to either walk according to the dictates of the flesh or the Spirit. And if they walk according to the flesh they are condemned even though born of God.

However Paul also says this, and how many can agree with it?
Galatians 5:24-25 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

So let's live worthy of the call God has placed on us.
I dont let my fleshly passions rule over me, with God's help.

Romans 8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Stephen Douglas said:

So, some folks are just proud and scornful and others are humble. Yet, Paul tells us that we were ALL children deserving of God’s wrath and the enemy of God. Sounds like we were, at some point, proud and scornful. What changed and why? Why do some hold to their autonomy and maintain their enmity with God while others surrender to His goodness?

Doug

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This discussion on this earlier reminded me that pride is "an abomination" and not a minor sin, but one of the 7 that God "hates" (Proverbs), and from earlier above: "...many verses pointing another way, that any could be saved that would turn and repent, and the main barrier is pride, which itself is significantly a choice (thus 'free will'), in that it persists if we choose to indulge it, but otherwise pridefulness tends to be diminished by living -- suffering some, seeing others die, and other normal life experiences -- if we are not set on maintaining it. In other words, which god does the individual choose to worship? Primarily himself -- pridefulness -- or instead the one true God?"

As also addressed above at one point: it seems to come down really to a true freedom to choose: does one choose to turn and answer the call, or instead refuse, for each person. John chapter 3 talks on this also. And that connects with Peter and Cornelius Acts 10:34-35
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

That's right back to John 3 -- whether they prefer to come into the light, or not, by personal choice.

It's also like Luke chapter 15 on the prodigal son -- He was a son, but then became 'dead', but when he finally turned, then because of the Father he was brought back in, and now "alive".

I guess that this is much too difficult of a subject to really investigate on a venue such as this.

Doug

Hammster said:

The the post I put out there to everyone that you responded to.

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OK I will address these verses:

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

— James 4:13-15



It aligns with



The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;

He turns it wherever He wishes.

— Proverbs 21:1



And



And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

— Ezra 6:22



Or



The mind of man plans his way,

But the Lord directs his steps.

— Proverbs 16:9



Or



The plans of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

— Proverbs 16:1



And this



Many plans are in a man’s heart,

But the counsel of the Lord will stand.

— Proverbs 19:21



So while there are some choices we can make, even those choices are subject to God. And, if scripture is to be believed, some choices are directly due to intervention from God.

I responded to your conclusion which was similar to my conclusion.

I do know of any scripture related to the topic I have not discussed and given a likely alternative.



The main issue with most verses showing: “God is in control of the choice”, just show, as we agree, God is in control of most choices, but it can still be true: humans can still have limited free will to have a few needed free will choices.



When talking about salvation the choices to obey God, have fellowship with God, Love God and so on are all choices made after the person has accepted God’s Love (charity as charity).

But I’ll be specific:

James 4:13-15 … you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

Which is just saying: “If our actions correspond to God’s plan and thus are allowed”, and we should always knowledge God’s power over our power. It is never God’s “will” for his children that they sin, but that does not keep them from sinning because God may allow them to sin hopefully learning from it. We can pray for God’s help in stopping us by set up hurdles to keep us from doing something wrong.

Proverbs 21:1 … But the Lord directs his steps.

First off you just cannot take any two verse especially one from the OT and one from the NT and put them together.

Does this mean the Lord is directing the steps of a person into big time sinning? How much “control” is God providing in sinning?

Or, is this referring to those who are looking to God’s guidance to help them?

Ezra 6:22 “Lord had caused them to rejoice…” and “…turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them”

Like I have said before: God is involved and controlling in the vast majority of activities and thinking of people, but not specifically as it relates to the one choice of accepting or rejecting God’s charity as charity.

Proverbs 16:9 “… But the Lord directs his steps.”

Again is this saying: “God causes every sin people do”?

God can direct (allow) the person a free will choice to go right or left it does not impact God’s will or God can cause a person to only go right this time to fit His will.

Proverbs 19:21 “Many plans are in a man’s heart, But the counsel of the Lord will stand.”

This is an interesting verse to show God’s control, because it does not. Man might have many plans, but God has the right plan, so will man seek the counsel of God to get the right plan or will man avoid God’s counsel and do his thing?

Hammster said:

True. Only those whose heart is prepared by God end up truly believing.

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Proverbs 28:19
Genesis 2:15



I think a Leap has been made that isn’t the case.

Also, then context incorporates the enemy as responsible in conjunction with the person falling prey to the enemy.

Halbhh said:

This discussion on this earlier reminded me that pride is "an abomination" and not a minor sin, but one of the 7 that God "hates" (Proverbs), and from earlier above: "...many verses pointing another way, that any could be saved that would turn and repent, and the main barrier is pride, which itself is significantly a choice (thus 'free will'), in that it persists if we choose to indulge it, but otherwise pridefulness tends to be diminished by living -- suffering some, seeing others die, and other normal life experiences -- if we are not set on maintaining it. In other words, which god does the individual choose to worship? Primarily himself -- pridefulness -- or instead the one true God?"

As also addressed above at one point: it seems to come down really to a true freedom to choose: does one choose to turn and answer the call, or instead refuse, for each person. John chapter 3 talks on this also. And that connects with Peter and Cornelius Acts 10:34-35
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

That's right back to John 3 -- whether they prefer to come into the light, or not, by personal choice.

It's also like Luke chapter 15 on the prodigal son -- He was a son, but then became 'dead', but when he finally turned, then because of the Father he was brought back in, and now "alive".

Click to expand...

John 3
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

bling said:

OK I will address these verses:

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

— James 4:13-15



It aligns with



The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;

He turns it wherever He wishes.

— Proverbs 21:1



And



And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

— Ezra 6:22



Or



The mind of man plans his way,

But the Lord directs his steps.

— Proverbs 16:9



Or



The plans of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

— Proverbs 16:1



And this



Many plans are in a man’s heart,

But the counsel of the Lord will stand.

— Proverbs 19:21



So while there are some choices we can make, even those choices are subject to God. And, if scripture is to be believed, some choices are directly due to intervention from God.

I responded to your conclusion which was similar to my conclusion.

I do know of any scripture related to the topic I have not discussed and given a likely alternative.



The main issue with most verses showing: “God is in control of the choice”, just show, as we agree, God is in control of most choices, but it can still be true: humans can still have limited free will to have a few needed free will choices.



When talking about salvation the choices to obey God, have fellowship with God, Love God and so on are all choices made after the person has accepted God’s Love (charity as charity).

But I’ll be specific:

James 4:13-15 … you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

Which is just saying: “If our actions correspond to God’s plan and thus are allowed”, and we should always knowledge God’s power over our power. It is never God’s “will” for his children that they sin, but that does not keep them from sinning because God may allow them to sin hopefully learning from it. We can pray for God’s help in stopping us by set up hurdles to keep us from doing something wrong.

Proverbs 21:1 … But the Lord directs his steps.

First off you just cannot take any two verse especially one from the OT and one from the NT and put them together.

Does this mean the Lord is directing the steps of a person into big time sinning? How much “control” is God providing in sinning?

Or, is this referring to those who are looking to God’s guidance to help them?

Ezra 6:22 “Lord had caused them to rejoice…” and “…turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them”

Like I have said before: God is involved and controlling in the vast majority of activities and thinking of people, but not specifically as it relates to the one choice of accepting or rejecting God’s charity as charity.

Proverbs 16:9 “… But the Lord directs his steps.”

Again is this saying: “God causes every sin people do”?

God can direct (allow) the person a free will choice to go right or left it does not impact God’s will or God can cause a person to only go right this time to fit His will.

Proverbs 19:21 “Many plans are in a man’s heart, But the counsel of the Lord will stand.”

This is an interesting verse to show God’s control, because it does not. Man might have many plans, but God has the right plan, so will man seek the counsel of God to get the right plan or will man avoid God’s counsel and do his thing?

Click to expand...

God must be in control of all things, otherwise the kingdom of God would not survive, prosper. and reach its full potential. God has many enemies, and none of them are like Him, He overcame them all.
So His judgments stand and can not be thrown down.
We also must overcome the world by our God given and enabled faith, because God requires us to also overcome the world.

Hammster said:

Those verses have nothing to do with the text. The text in question never mentions that we are responsible for the soil.

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Nor does it say that God specifically tends some soil and doesn’t tend others.

Hammster said:

The soil is prepared already.

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It specifically differentiates what distinguishes the soils from one another and heaps the blame on Satan and Mankind for the soul that isn’t responsive, properly.

It doesn’t hide this fact in the slightest. God has provided good soil to all, and not all maintain it so. Satan and mankind taint it.