How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

BNR32FAN said:

Why does God graft in those who will not endure and abide in Christ if He has not chosen them to be predestined to salvation?

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I cannot answer that question since I do not have any clue how or why God thinks the way He thinks.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. rsv

Scripture shows us that salvation is a process for each of us until physical death. Salvation is not a one-time event.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv

A person has his whole life to "work out his own salvation with fear and trembling", but it is his soul's state at the instant of his death which determines where he will spend eternity. If the Holy Spirit is living within his soul at the time of his death, Jesus will say that He "knows" him and so he will inherit eternal life. If the Holy Spirit is not living within his soul at the time of his death, Jesus will say that He does not "know" him and so he will not inherit eternal life. Acts 5:32, Luke 13:23-29

The following passage is relevant to this discussion:

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. rsv

Before the foundation of the world, God "foresaw" which of the people that He would later create would be found faithful to His commandments at the time of their death. These people He foreknew. These people that He foreknew, He also predestined them to eternal life. Because He predestined these people to eternal life before the foundation of the world, He also called them, justified them, and glorified them before the foundation of the world.

God also foresaw before the foundation of the world that some people He "called" would be "justified", but they would not be "glorified" because they would not remain faithful until their death. God did not predestine these people to eternal life.

God "calls" everyone to repentance but not everyone accepts His call and repents, believes, is baptized/justified, and remains faithful until death. Matthew 22:14, Matthew 24:11-13, Mark 16:16

Jan001 said:

I cannot answer that question since I do not have any clue how or why God thinks the way He thinks.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. rsv

Scripture shows us that salvation is a process for each of us until physical death. Salvation is not a one-time event.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv

A person has his whole life to "work out his own salvation with fear and trembling", but it is his soul's state at the instant of his death which determines where he will spend eternity. If the Holy Spirit is living within his soul at the time of his death, Jesus will say that He "knows" him and so he will inherit eternal life. If the Holy Spirit is not living within his soul at the time of his death, Jesus will say that He does not "know" him and so he will not inherit eternal life. Acts 5:32, Luke 13:23-29

The following passage is relevant to this discussion:

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. rsv

Before the foundation of the world, God "foresaw" which of the people that He would later create would be found faithful to His commandments at the time of their death. These people He foreknew. These people that He foreknew, He also predestined them to eternal life. Because He predestined these people to eternal life before the foundation of the world, He also called them, justified them, and glorified them before the foundation of the world.

God also foresaw before the foundation of the world that some people He "called" would be "justified", but they would not be "glorified" because they would not remain faithful until their death. God did not predestine these people to eternal life.

God "calls" everyone to repentance but not everyone accepts His call and repents, believes, is baptized/justified, and remains faithful until death. Matthew 22:14, Matthew 24:11-13, Mark 16:16

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If someone was justified then they were at one time saved then later lost their salvation. When someone is justified “counted as being righteous by God” they have received Christ’s atonement and are at that time saved but if they fail abide in Christ and endure to the end they will forfeit their salvation. If they should fall away they can still be saved so long as they repent. What are your thoughts on John 1:12 in light of this subject? We’re talking about people who have received Christ as mentioned in John 15:1-10 and yet some fail to abide as stated in John 15:6. God gave them the right, authority, power to become children of God because they have received Christ. So why did they fail to abide? Is it by their own free will or is it because they were not chosen by God?

bling said:

The question is: "Did God have to get there with us?

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One had to, (or rather two) and One did not, and only One did not...

God Bless!

Halbhh said:

Yes! But, when someone asserts another idea about the future, such as that God 'goes to the future to look', or 'is already there' or 'is present to all times', or dozens of other such possibilities, those are speculations also.... Since every last idea on that is speculation, the best we can do in our speculation is try to have one that fits all scripture, and that does not (usually inadvertently) happen to contradict some scriptures. Very often people have heard an idea, and assumed it's biblical, but it reality it's merely a theory someone came up with. It's even more beyond our ken yet though -- what we think is good logic may be irrelevant, because our notions of how things work are, as Paul wrote almost 2,000 years ago, 1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. -- and this I think will always remain the case, until He returns.

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No one has shown any contradiction to scripture with my idea “theory” of how it could work. The only issue is with God talking about future even like they have not happened, which is more an issue with how God communicates with man in man’s understanding since it is future events for man, than God describing how operates. Jesus being crucified from the foundation of the earth might explain more of God’s perspective.

With all explanations of scripture: you go with the most likely alternative at the time, so if someone has a better idea, I would like to hear it, since I have huge issues with the other theories of how it works for God.

What other way is there for God to have perfect knowledge of man’s future (which He seems to have) and man to have some limited free will?

I seem to have a different understanding of 1 Cor. 13:10 than you do.

Hammster said:

If you and bling would spend time in scripture, you’d have these answers about God’s omniscience.

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I do not have an issue with God's omniscience, but if you have some particular scripture in mind please let me know?

Dig4truth said:

Bling: “I realize you believe in free will and I did read 309, but you like most who belief in free will, cannot give any possible way for God to know the “future” perfectly and man to be able to choose otherwise. It is all left to some “mysterious way” only God could figure out. That is not a strong answer for those who can logically show how it would be impossible for the future to be set in stone and man to have free will (I get into discussions with Open View believers about this same thing.“

God knows the end from the beginning. (Isa 46:9-11)

God is outside of time. If not He could not be eternal and the Scripture clearly defines God as eternal. So a man can choose whatever he desires and God will know it before the man even chooses it. That is what Scripture teaches.

So free will and God knowing what we will choose are not incompatible at all.

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right

Neogaia777 said:

One had to, (or rather two) and One did not, and only One did not...

God Bless!

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God is with us and before us and in the future.

Hammster said:

This should end the debate as to how free our choices are.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
— James 4:13-15

It aligns with

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

And

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

Or

The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
— Proverbs 16:9

Or

The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
— Proverbs 16:1

And this

Many plans are in a man’s heart,
But the counsel of the Lord will stand.
— Proverbs 19:21

So while there are some choices we can make, even those choices are subject to God. And, if scripture is to be believed, some choices are directly due to intervention from God.

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We are actually very much in agreement with:
"...some choices are directly due to intervention from God...." and
"some choices we can make, even those choices are subject to God."
since all our choices are subject to God, with God allows us to make some autonomous free will choices that will allow us to fulfill our earthly objective.

So, if God calls EVERYONE to repentance but only a few accept this call, why do some accept and endure while others reject it and fall away? God leaves such eternal consequences totally up man’s inept ability to make righteous choices?? Do only a few have some innate virtue within them that allows them to hear and respond to their Master’s voice while others do not?

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive even the elect, if it were possible.” Matthew 24:24

Doug

Hammster said:

I guess you skipped the other verses I posted. Why is that?

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I do know of any scripture related to the topic I have not discussed and given a likely alternative.

The main issue with most verses showing: “God is in control of the choice”, just show, as we agree, God is in control of most choices, but it can still be true: humans can still have limited free will to have a few needed free will choices.

When talking about salvation the choices to obey God, have fellowship with God, Love God and so on are all choices made after the person has accepted God’s Love (charity as charity).

Stephen Douglas said:

So, if God calls EVERYONE to repentance but only a few accept this call, why do some accept and endure while others reject it and fall away? God leaves such eternal consequences totally up man’s inept ability to make righteous choices?? Do only a few have some innate virtue within them that allows them to hear and respond to their Master’s voice while others do not?

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive even the elect, if it were possible.” Matthew 24:24

Doug

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Doug, your getting the cart before the horse.

The sinful unbeliever cannot make righteous, honorable, noble, worthy, and holy choices, but can make different self-motivated (selfish) choices. One selfish choice the sinner can make is to accept his hated enemy (God) undeserved charity as charity. This is like the prodigal son return to his father desiring an undeserved job.

People do not like to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity, some are willing to be macho and pay the piper, and some do not want to disturb their father more with their presence.

Stephen Douglas said:

So, if God calls EVERYONE to repentance but only a few accept this call, why do some accept and endure while others reject it and fall away? God leaves such eternal consequences totally up man’s inept ability to make righteous choices?? Do only a few have some innate virtue within them that allows them to hear and respond to their Master’s voice while others do not?

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive even the elect, if it were possible.” Matthew 24:24

Doug

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Mark 4:1-20 is the implicit answer.

Hammster said:

So God can determine every choice but that one?

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IMO

The question is not rationally can God “Determine” a thing as God is Infinitely Omnipotent. The question is what did God “choose” to implement that is now Actualized.

The Determinism Of the matter is merely the reflection of man “Determining” what God has done, but the only fact of the matter is what God has done... and Job before the whirlwind reveals how that matter plays out in reference to human understanding.

bling said:

Doug, your getting the cart before the horse.

The sinful unbeliever cannot make righteous, honorable, noble, worthy, and holy choices, but can make different self-motivated (selfish) choices. One selfish choice the sinner can make is to accept his hated enemy (God) undeserved charity as charity. This is like the prodigal son return to his father desiring an undeserved job.

People do not like to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity, some are willing to be macho and pay the piper, and some do not want to disturb their father more with their presence.

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Allow me to pose the question more directly.

“Why would some people make that “selfish” decision to make Jesus the Lord of their life while others pass on the benefits?”

Doug

Grip Docility said:

Mark 4:1-20 is the implicit answer.

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That passage seems to open up more questions than answers. Who has ears to hear? Is it everyone? Why not? How do you get ears to hear? What is the “good” ground? Why do some hear this word and accept it while others reject it?

Are these elemental questions not direct enough or is it just easier to side step them? I must reveal that I don’t know exactly how it all works out but if we are going to use scripture to propose thoughts and ideas on the subject we should also address what actually changes the heart and mind to choose Christ. No?

Doug