Bable and Tongues

K2K said:

Knowing the Lord means getting teachings. I love them, though it is not always easy to talk to other people about them, because love believes all but not us.

Anyway - I want to put forth something I got and I like, and that is the connection between tongues and the tower of Babel. There is an interesting part about that tower and the events around it. They were trying to build a physical tower to get to heaven. Of course that was never going happen. We can fly to the moon and man didn't find heaven on the way. Yet God comes down and says that if men come together and act like that, nothing will be impossible for them. So God causes men to speak in different languages - apparently so men won't come together and some how get to heaven so that nothing is impossible for them?

So anyway, because we don't speak the same language, we have one group of men wanting to have control of things, and another group of mean wanting to have control of things, but who looks to God to control things?

Now tongues comes from the Spirit of God controlling our language, so we can speak the same language again!!!

It's a language controlled by the Spirit (God) but if nothing was impossible for those men who came together speaking the same language but not controlled by God, how much more will all things be possible for us if we all come together speaking the same language 'tongues' controlled by the Spirit?

My friends - we have ability to come together speaking the same language and a way to get into the heavens (spiritual) all via the Holy Spirit - so nothing is impossible for us!! But do we think about this - or is it just something silly that some Christians do?

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There is no comparison between the 1 Corinthians 14 gift of tongues and the Tower of Babel. The Holy Spirit gift is one of the tools of the Spirit for the building up of the body of Christ. Paul is quite clear in the chapter about how tongues should be used by Christian believers.

The problem is that all sorts of people have dreamed up many diverse notions about tongues that are nowhere found in the New Testament. The ability to speak or pray in tongues does bring a believer into the "deeper life", nor does it give a greater spiritual awareness of any kind. It certainly does not bring someone closer to God or make them holier than anyone else, in the same way that using a torque wrench by a mechanic does not make him a better person in himself!

Most of the theories about tongues that are not clearly stated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 are nothing but absolute and silly nonsense dreamed up by people who know little or nothing about it.

K2K said:

Like I wrote: "though it is not always easy to talk to other people about them, because love believes all but not us."

Yeah - the Bible goes together whether a person can see that or not. If men come together all speaking the same language nothing is impossible for them, and the Spirit can bring believers together and give them all the same language. And didn't you fail to read that Paul thanked God that he prayed in tongue more than any of them, even if he was prophesying when with them.

And how do you possibly come to the conclusion that using tongues 'certainly does not bring someone closer to God'.

When we seek the Lord and let the Spirit use us, it obviously is going to bring us closer to God, because simply put, the Spirit of God is God!!

As far as being holier -- you should talk to the Lord about what that means!!

The Lord created all things, yet somethings are holier than others. So what things are they? My friends, the things God uses for His glory are holy unto Him. If you let Him use your voice, then you are holier than those you do not let God use them. That doesn't mean you are necessarily better than others, but only that you are letting yourself be used by Him. But that is another teaching, that someone who doesn't listen to the Lord might not have gotten.

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Once we are converted to Christ, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. This makes us as close to God as we are ever going to get in this life. Everything we do and say is through the Holy Spirit in us, and we are led by the Spirit. Self-improvement is not part of growing in grace. We cannot improve the flesh. It is already sinful and detestable to God, and so it can't be improved. All we do is to walk in the Spirit and do what He is inspiring and guiding us to do.

Oscarr said:

The Holy Spirit gift is one of the tools of the Spirit for the building up of the body of Christ.

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Oscarr said:

The problem is that all sorts of people have dreamed up many diverse notions about tongues that are nowhere found in the New Testament. The ability to speak or pray in tongues does bring a believer into the "deeper life", nor does it give a greater spiritual awareness of any kind. It certainly does not bring someone closer to God or make them holier than anyone else, in the same way that using a torque wrench by a mechanic does not make him a better person in himself!

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Hi, Oscarr . . . you just said tongues is for building up the body of Jesus; then you say essentially that tongues does nothing!

After all, if we are built up in Jesus, we become deeper with God . . . in our "deeper life" of His love. And in this love we have more and more "spiritual awareness" . . . as our Apostle Paul has claimed in prayer >

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

Paul is very clear how a person praying in real tongues "edifies himself" (1 Corinthians 14:4). But the person needs to have an interpretation, so others may also be edified.

But you are right if you mean that tongues does not give us some special status and superiority over others who do not speak in tongues. True gifts are humble. They do not call for a lot of attention, like fakes do. But true gifts minister God's own grace > 1 Peter 4:9-10.

So, you are right if you mean that true tongues does not make anyone superior above others. But grace is ministered so we share together > "in all things" > Ephesians 4:15.

Therefore, there is a lot of counterfeiting in order to keep people away from ministering God's grace which changes us to become like Jesus > "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

com7fy8 said:

Hi, Oscarr . . . you just said tongues is for building up the body of Jesus; then you say essentially that tongues does nothing!

After all, if we are built up in Jesus, we become deeper with God . . . in our "deeper life" of His love. And in this love we have more and more "spiritual awareness" . . . as our Apostle Paul has claimed in prayer >

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

Paul is very clear how a person praying in real tongues "edifies himself" (1 Corinthians 14:4). But the person needs to have an interpretation, so others may also be edified.

But you are right if you mean that tongues does not give us some special status and superiority over others who do not speak in tongues. True gifts are humble. They do not call for a lot of attention, like fakes do. But true gifts minister God's own grace > 1 Peter 4:9-10.

So, you are right if you mean that true tongues does not make anyone superior above others. But grace is ministered so we share together > "in all things" > Ephesians 4:15.

Therefore, there is a lot of counterfeiting in order to keep people away from ministering God's grace which changes us to become like Jesus > "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

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I should have made myself a little more clear about the effectiveness of tongues in the life of the believer. You are quite correct that praying in tongues edifies the believer. This is the private use of it. My definition of "edify" is to build up and strengthen a believer's faith in Christ, and make him or her more sensitive to the inner voice of the Holy Spirit, to be able to distinguish between it and the diverse voices of the world, the flesh and the devil.

But I do have a hesitation about the idea of going deeper with God. I believe that with the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are as deep with God as we are going to get. The notion of going deeper comes from the historic belief of the "deeper life" movement, where those ones believe that they can be raised to a deeper spiritual realm with God where the common "herd" couldn't go. It was seen, accompanied by the disillusionment of most of its followers, that the "deeper life" was a fantasy. The reality is that we grow in grace and in faith, having a clearer understanding and insight into God's Word. This is what we know as our walk in the Spirit. It is a progressive development where we get more and more victory over the flesh that gets in our way, and became stronger in our sanctification.

I believe that those who are seeking for a "second inner eye" to see things concerning the deep things of God are moving toward the occult, where different types of contrary spirits can deceive people into being special prophets and "seers". I used to be somewhat intimidated by senior godly men when I was involved with the Pentecostal church because I believed that these men had a special ability to see right into the hearts of people. I learned as I went on that this was a lie. I am now one of those senior godly men, after being 50 years in the faith and praying in tongues constantly all that time, and yet I have never had the ability to "see" into the heart of anyone.

And interestingly enough, I still have struggles with the flesh part of me. It just won't lie down on the altar and die. It keeps on roaring and screaming to have more freedom and not be held under subjection. I think that my development is that I can recognise when the flesh is warring against my spirit, although it is still a fight and a battle with me. If anyone doubts that, just ask my wife when she wants me to get off Christian Forums, do the dishes, put out the garbage and feed the cats!!

I wouldn't have a fraction of the prayer life that I do have if I did not pray in tongues. My faith in tongues is based on 1 Corinthians 14:2 and I have had to hold on to that verse tooth and nail against all the attacks and doubts the enemy have had on me. Also, the Holy Spirit directed me to Paul's comment, "That a person speaking in tongues gives thanks well". This means that when I am praying in tongues I am constantly giving thanks to God. I got a link between this and Philippians 4:6-7 where it says, "Do not be anxious for nothing, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving make your requests to God and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ." So, I reckon that the thanksgiving part is when I pray in tongues.

Actually, tongues is most useful to me when I do feel anxious or fearful. I have had the experience of speaking in tongues during a nightmare and it brought relief to me. I feel more vulnerable in my thoughts just before I go to sleep and some thoughts can make me feel a little fearful and panicky. So I pray in tongues and that deals with it.

I believe in intercessory tongues when I feel a burden to pray for someone, and I don't know what to pray for. So I ask the Lord to guide my tongues so I can pray the most effective prayer for someone. I had the experience of being asked to pray by a member of CF around 12 years ago for his mother who was bleeding heavily in her stomach and there were great fears for her life while in hospital with the doctors frantically trying to find the cause of it. I happened to be driving in my car the next day and I asked the Lord to guide my tongue for her, and the most rapid and dramatic language came up from within me and lasted for 20 minutes after which I felt really drained. I found out later that at the time when I prayed, the bleeding stopped. The language was so rapid and dramatic that there was no way I could have made it up, and when it stopped, I could not recreate it. It was a specific intercessory language to intercede with God to bring that woman back from the brink of death.

My old pastor in the 1970s could pray in a specific tongue that brought the glory of God into a meeting. I experienced that twice with him during conferences I attended with him. I have never experienced such an intensity of the Holy Spirit in a meeting before of since those times. It was said of Smith Wigglesworth, the British healing evangelist of the 1920s that when he prayed with other pastors before a meeting, they could not stay in the room with him, such was the intensity of the Holy Spirit. This shows me that the modern Charismatic movement is pretty well watered down from what it used to be 50 years ago.

I apologise for the long post, but I get stimulated in the Spirit when I think of these things. Tongues for me is a valuable gift, and the Holy Spirit has told me quite clearly that my prayers are more important to Him than anything else I do. I just love talking to God, and hearing Him talk back to me, even through my own thoughts while I am still speaking to Him, and I end up saying, Hey, Lord, I have a great idea about this, and start telling Him about it, and then realise that the idea is His answer to the issue that I was discussing with Him! You can't beat prayer times like that!

K2K said:

We know that nothing is impossible for God, and also that we don't know how to pray as we ought.

What is interesting about the tower of Babel story is that God comes down and say that if men act like that (coming together to build a tower to heaven) that nothing would be impossible for them. How could that be?

I like putting questions to the Lord and see what comes back to me. We see that God gives us the desires of our heart. PS 37. So if all men had the exact same desire (to build a tower to heaven) then how could God say He gives us the desire of our heart and then not get them to heaven? He couldn't. So we see that He cause men to speak in different languages.

Yet consider - that did separate men and stopped them from working together on a tower to heaven, but did it really change the desire of their hearts, considering that when men did come together that was what they desired?

Didn't God ultimately still have to fulfill that desire?

Yet, since we don't know how to pray as we ought, wasn't it necessary that the coming together and speaking the same language be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? So in acts we see the Spirit comes down like tongue of fire and all the devote believers from different nations were understanding what the others were saying, under the guidance of the Spirit. They not only got the gift of tongues but the gift on interpretation also. And being of the same language is not so much about saying the same words but understanding what is being said by others. That is: I speak American, and if I got to England I might hear a word I also use but it might have a different meaning. So it is the understanding or interpretation that is important.

Anyway, there was a connection and progression between the two stories (Babel and Pentecost). I would have never seen it but for my Teacher explaining things to me. We should come together, praying in tongues with interpretation.

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I think you are comparing apples with oranges.

K2K said:

Interesting? It seems like I am comparing one part of the Bible to another. Both of which have new languages introduced by God. Maybe if you stat with that and take it to the Lord you then won't have the "I think" in your comments and will be able to come back with "He thinks".

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What you're proposing is the same as "Judas went out and hanged himself"; "Go and do thou likewise".

K2K said:

I tell you to take it to the Lord to see what He has to say about it and you think that is the same as Judas going out and hanging himself???

My friend, you need to believe that the Lord is available to be heard from!! This is a basic principle in Christianity and is the basic reason the Bible was written.

Is 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as snow"

So I ask you to go and reason with the Lord on this subject and instead of thinking that is what makes your sins white as snow you think I am asking you to go hang yourself? That is not Biblical - not does it make any sense.

Paul wrote Rm 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCENT INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down)

And Paul concluded Rm 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

So me telling you that you should take it to the Lord and listen to what He says to you is preaching Jesus Christ - That He can be heard from via the Spirit of God speaking to your spirit. That is Christianity, because Christianity is being a follower of Christ. To be a follower of Christ you listen to His voice and the words that come from Him via the Spirit to your spirit. You find those words near you, in your heart and often in your mouth because God puts things on your heart. Not only God. We do need to test the spirits, but God in omni-present. That is one of His attributes. And the Word of God is alive and active, and you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, right?

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a rode dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.
Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God
Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, because all the things of the Father has been given to Him (Jn16:15) which would include the very words of God. The words of God belong to Him, and the Spirit takes from what is His, and speaks it to you personally (Jn 16:13,14)

So it is that we can reason with the Lord, meaning of course that we can take things like the subject I brought up and of which the Lord talked to me about, and take it to the Lord and reason with Him. But if you don't practice hearing, your hearing will be dull, you are not qualified to teach even if you know the Bible, and you will be in need of someone going over the basic principles of Christianity.

Heb 5:11-14 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.... But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Evil is that snake who said, "Indeed, has God said..." (Gen 3:1) So I put out something the Lord told me and a voice of doubt will come and say "Indeed, has God said", but we live by faith and as written above - " the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCENT INTO HEAVEN?'

That is, I wrote that all things are possible if we come together seeking heaven and speak in one language - which is what we can see if we look at the Bible and the connection between the tower of Babel story and then again the Acts Pentecost story. That is the meat. All things are possible if we come together and let the Holy Spirit guide us, by using our spirit to pray and to get an interpretation for our mind, so that we pray as we ought and become aware of what is being prayed for by reasoning with the Lord (asking for an interpretation) and listening to the word of God that is near us. On our lips (speaking in tongues) and in our heart (getting the interpretation!

There is a lot to say to someone if they don't believe that the Lord is there to be heard from. It's simple really. God is there. He stands at the door knocking with His voice and all we have to do is just open the door and converse with Him. But you have to have believe (have faith) that He is there. And that voice of doubt saying 'Indeed has God said" tends to get in the way.

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Okay. I hear you.
Now, to get back on track with the OP, explain how you believe that the events around the tower of Babel correspond with the gift of tongues as set out in 1 Corinthians 14.

K2K said:

I did explain that, but I understand that I don't explain things as well as the Lord. So if you don't understand my explanation, you should take it to the Lord! This is a problem Christians have. Where hear something and then lean on our own understanding. Then we make judgement based upon our understanding instead of His. So we need to take all thoughts captive to Him.

Anyway, since asked, I will give it another try. The Lord pointed out to me that in the tower of Babel story, because they all spoke the same language they came together to try to get to heaven, but they didn't come together under Him, but by working according to their own understanding. So they were trying to build a physical tower to reach a spiritual goal. Never-the-less, it clearly shows a spiritual desire the people had. People want to get access to heaven! Getting access to heaven would make all things possible, because all things are possible with God.

Since God says He gives people the desires of their hearts, He would need to give people access to heaven. However since it wasn't done according to Him and by following Him He needed to cause it to stop until an appropriate time. So He broke them apart by causing them to speak in different languages. Note: that doesn't change the desire of people hearts, which is to get access to heaven, but it does cause conflict so they would not work together. So the desire of the people's heart, to get access to heaven, still remains and God needed to address it, at the appropriate time.

The appropriate time was after the cross, of course. So after the cross God sends His Spirit down with the gift of tongues, the language of angels, and with interpretation so all the devote people can hear and understand in their own language. Now all the people, the devote people anyway, speak the same language but under God's will, not their own. So for the devote believer God has put back together what He broke apart in the tower of Babel story. That is, the believers can all speak the same language again and come together under the Spirit of God with access to heaven, so that all things are possible.

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Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:2 that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God (prays) because no person understands him; he speaks mysteries in the Spirit. Therefore, in the light of this verse, speaking in tongues is not speaking to each other in a common language, thereby undoing the effect of the Tower of Babel, because we use our known language to speak to each other, but tongues is praying to God.

Therefore, tongues has a totally different function than normal communicative language.

K2K said:

Why do you think people were building the tower to heaven if not to speak to God?????

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They were in rebellion against God. Their only desire to speak to God was in making declarations directly opposing God.

So the idea that they had a desire to speak to God would have to be understood as a rebellious act. Which has no similarity to the desire of a Christian to speak to God. And certainly no connection with 1Cor.14

If it was a right thing to compare speaking in tongues with the tower of Babel then the apostle Paul in particular, in teaching about the subject, would have used the example. But the tower of Babel is connected only with rebellion and being disobedient to God.

The best scripture to use in connection with speaking in tongues, a large group speaking to God in humility, in unity.. is in Acts 4:24 with the verses surrounding that event. And any other scripture where people get together for the purpose of seeking God's will.

K2K said:

The fact that people spoke the same language only helped the come together!!!

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It was Nimrod who controlled them to be together.

But their purpose was not right before God. They were led by and controlled by Nimrod- the rebellious one. God had said be scattered abroad, spread out and inhabit the earth. Nimrod refused. The people were gathered together in one place. The purpose of building the tower was to reach heaven so that Nimrod could rule from there. It's the same as is recorded in

It was their unity in speaking the same thing together that God sought to stop by confusing their language into many different ones, and therefore being unable to understand each other. So they scattered abroad. Thus doing God's will.

Another reason for building the tower would be to attempt to be safe from any following world flood. For anyone in Nimrod's memory who rebelled against God got drowned by a flood.

K2K said:

The language unified them, but the purpose to was to speak to God.

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That idea comes from an erroneous connection of the tower of Babel and the NT gift of speaking in tongues. I've elaborated on that further down in this post.

K2K said:

The problem of that time was that they were coming together to speak to God for their own shellfish desire.

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That is the reason why your connection is wrong.

K2K said:

Yet if the Spirit brings us together to speak to God the desire will then be the desire of the Spirit, and not our selfish desires.

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So if you didn't use the wrong connection.. you would not have to make that statement.

K2K said:

Which is just another way of saying we don't know how to pray as we ought!

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Concerning selfish desires.. the person ought to do a search in the Bible to know what God's will is.. and therefore have knowledge of particular verses to use in regard to standing strong in resisting selfish cravings of the flesh and unrighteous thoughts of the mind.

If a person is so caught up in selfish desires that they misapply and twist the proper use of a scripture in order to attempt to get their selfish desire. That is not a matter of not knowing how to pray as they ought. It's a matter of not seeking to do God's will.

K2K said:

So the tower of Babel and the people coming together then was stopped by God by giving people different languages. Yet He, with tongues, again gave us as language to come together to speak to God, like you pointed out.

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The first example is not doing God's will but sin and disobedience. The second example is doing God's will which is salvation and obedience. The two examples are opposed.

The only thing they have in common is speaking. The first example is of not speaking according to God but according to Nimrod. The second example is speaking according to God.

The first example is of God confusing their languages.. God gave them each different human languages.

The second example is of God giving the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues.. as a secondary means of communication with God other than one's learned language.

Any way that the two are looked at.. they are not comparable. Therefore they should not be connected.

com7fy8 said:

Hi, Oscarr . . . you just said tongues is for building up the body of Jesus; then you say essentially that tongues does nothing!

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I never said that! Good grief, I have been praying in tongues for over 50 years and seen some remarkable things happen as a result!

So, you are right if you mean that true tongues does not make anyone superior above others. But grace is ministered so we share together > "in all things" > Ephesians 4:15.

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Yep. That's what I meant when I said it was just another tool that the Spirit uses to build up the body of Christ, and that includes the personal use, because as members of the Body, we are individually built up when we pray in tongues; and the general body of Christ is built up when it is used in conjunction with interpretation.

Therefore, there is a lot of counterfeiting in order to keep people away from ministering God's grace which changes us to become like Jesus > "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

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The devil hates tongues and will use all the dirty tricks in the book to influence good people away from it.

Oh! I forgot that I had already responded to your post! Senior moment!