How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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TribulationSigns said:
I noticed. I can see that they are trying to move the "periods" around to fit their doctrines.
Only the Holy Spirit can aid you with that. I only testify what Scripture says. I will explain a little bit, so please bear with me and consider this.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth..
The word "power" is not in the Greek texts....

at least use a correct translation TS, as you are "adding" to the Scripture to fit it into your own doctrines.....

[Please view my Revelation Chapt 11 verse by verse thread:]

Revelation chapt 11 verse study
Oct 15, 2008
TribulationSigns said:
You misunderstood. I said that I was not the one who inserted "authority" in the modern translations that YOU quoted. So you need to deal with it.
LittleLambofJesus said:
And where did they prophecy?
TribulationSigns said:
Didn't you bother to check with Scripture to find out?
Act 1:6-8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is where. Got a problem with this?
LittleLambofJesus said:
That was said pre 70ad
TribulationSigns said:
[patting on your back] Sure...sure... and by the way, you still got the 'war and rumors of wars" part with your 70AD Roman military fantasy all wrong. Your idea of the old covenant had to end with the physical destruction of 70AD (instead of the Cross) in order for the church to go out into the world as witnesses are unbiblical, to begin with anyway! You got timing all wrong. We have gone through this before. ;)
LittleLambofJesus said:
The first part of Isaiah 61:2 was fulfilled during the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus and the Apostles up to the Cross and 70ad
[Contiune patting on your back with a smile] :)
And you also :)
 
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parousia70

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The disciples were part of the church.
And yet you have to forcibly remove them from ANY application of the passage in order to prop up your position....

You got the timing of Christ's Olivet Discourse prophecy all wrong because you believe that it only applies to the days of the disciples.

Unless your contention is that every successive generation of the church witnessed the abomination of desolation, then you also agree it's fulfillment can apply to only ONE generation....

And you did not answer whether the Temple and the City were considered holy in 70AD despite the fact that God has anointed His New Testament congregation at Pentecost with His original disciples? :)

You make this too easy.

Acts 21:28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.”

1 Corinthians 9:13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The disciples were part of the church. They were anointed by the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and have become a part of the New Testament congregation. Peter declared this, Acts 2:14-41. All of this took place long before 70AD. So yes, Christ was speaking to His Church through them. You got the timing of Christ's Olivet Discourse prophecy all wrong because you believe that it only applies to the days of the disciples.

And you did not answer whether the Temple and the City were considered holy in 70AD despite the fact that God has anointed His New Testament congregation at Pentecost with His original disciples? :)
You make this too easy.
Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
Hello Parousia....good post!....have you and/or others viewed this thread I started?

THE "42 MONTHS" IN REVELATION

TribulationSigns said:
A question for you, Little Lamb, was the physical city of Jerusalem considered holy by God in 70AD despite after the Biblical fact that God rent the veil in the temple, (Mark 15:37–38) and that Christ already declared the city desolate when He spoke it, (Matthew 23:37-38).

Verses where the phrase "holy city" is used:
It appears there is both an OC "earthly carnal" holy city and a NC "spiritual" holy city?...........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

"holy city"
occurs 10 times in 10 verses in the NKJV.

New Testament:

Mat 4:5
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 27:53
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The Court in Revelation 11:2
The Court in Revelation 11:2


Revelation 11
2 And the Court without of the Sanctuary, be Casting Out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the Nations/eqnesin <1484>
and the Holy City they shall be trampling forty two months

Rev 21:2
Then I, John,[fn] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[fn] his part from the Book[fn] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
=================================
The Old Testament:

Neh 11:1
Now the leaders of the people dwelt at Jerusalem; the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of ten to dwell in Jerusalem, the holy city, and nine-tenths were to dwell in other cities.
Neh 11:18
All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred and eighty-four.

Isa 48:2
For they call themselves after the holy city,
And lean on the God of Israel;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
Isa 52:1
Awake, awake!
Put on your strength, O Zion;
Put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city!
For the uncircumcised and the unclean
Shall no longer come to you.

Dan 9:24
“Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Unless your contention is that every successive generation of the church witnessed the abomination of desolation, then you also agree it's fulfillment can apply to only ONE generation....

What generation. Which verse were you referred to?

You make this too easy.

Really? Let see...

Acts 21:28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.”

Please read the context:

Act 21:27-29
(27) And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
(28) Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
(29) (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

Did Paul actually make a statement about the temple being holy at that time? Or did his accusers make such a statement? If the accusers said taht Paul considered the temple holy, then you need to find a verse where Paul wrote himself that it is. Show me. Can't believe that you actually brought accusers' lies! This what happens when you pull a verse out of context.

1 Corinthians 9:13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?

Once again, read the context:

1Co 9:11-14
(11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
(12) If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(13) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
(14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Who are those at the altar that preach the gospel?

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Did Paul talk about physical temple and altar here? Or is it signify the Church, the body of Christ, where the gospel is being preached? No wondering, you do not understand spiritual things like Paul wrote in verse 11.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Again context:

2Th 2:3-8
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Where is the temple of God on this side of the Cross? Let me know who you think the man of sin in 70AD that was destroyed with the brightness of Lord's coming. DO you have a historical record of that? Chuckle.

Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

The holy city of Revelation 11 is talking about New Testament congregation, making up of two groups of God's people. The True and CHosen Elect (in temple area) and the professed Christians (in the court without the temple). This obviously talked about in the future when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit and was given the court by God as a judgment. None of this was fulfilled in 70AD.[/quote]
 
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DavidPT

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I didn't change the words! Jesus indeed spoke to His Church this way.



What words have I changed? What "Scripture weight" have you refuted? You are all talking with full of hot air so far. Just speculations based on the writing of historians, not with Biblical history.



Again, I didn't. His audience is the Church that applies to all believers from the first century to today. When He spoke to the disciples His audience was the Church. When God (through Paul) spoke to the Corinthians, His audience was the Church. When He spoke to the Romans, His audience was the Church. When Christ told the disciples that in this world, they would have tribulation (John 16:33), His audience was the Church. It does not apply only to direct physical audience!



Hardly! But I can see why you want to dismiss it because Jesus did warn that there are people like you who are not the one "whoso readeth, let him understand." It is not what you thought it seems what Christ talked about. Selah!

For example, a "Biblically defined" Judaea, and a "Biblically defined" Temple, and a "Biblically defined" Holy Place, and "Biblically defined" mountains to flee to, etc., etc. Not a Judaea as defined in the wisdom of the world, but a Judaea defined by the scriptures. For it was in the wisdom of the world that the Temple Jesus said He would raise up in three days, and your "audience", the Jews said was forty-six years in its building. But it was the wisdom of God who said the Temple Christ spoke of they would destroy and He would rebuild in three days was His body. Hello?!

1st Corinthians 3:18-20
  • "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
  • For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
  • And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
Wisdom is not in taking things as they seem like you do with 70AD theories, but taking things as God meant them to be taken!

And the fact is there was no "Holy Place" of God in the famous Jewish Temple in Jerusalem 70 A.D. That physical temple was NOT holy at that time, to begin with in order to fulfill Matthew 24:15! God has already anointed His New Testament Congregation on Pentecost after Christ said the temple fell and in three days He would rebuilt it. Obviously, these did not take place in 70AD! Christ knew that beforehand better than anyone since He is omniscient. Thus He would not prophesy of abomination standing in the Holy Place if that wasn't the Holy Place, to the believers, then and now. As stated, He is not a man that he should prophesy carelessly or capriciously or without forethought...as a man would! That's a Biblical fact which cannot be denied.

Preterism is a whole other gospel than the gospel of Christ. Period. Same goes with the Dispensationalism. They both have something in common. They both take a physical city and temple of Jersualem in their flawed and man-made interpretations...like the Jews of Old when they thought Christ was talking about a temple that took them 46 years in building. Selah!


I read through this post and noticed very little I might argue against myself. Good post. Good points.
 
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mkgal1

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The problem is that you were thinking of a literal place where Satan is put away so that Christians won't be harmed. That is not correct. Bottomless pit simply means HIS POWER TO DECEIVE or KEEP PEOPLE FROM GETTING SAVED (spoiled by Christ and His Witnesses). That is all. It does not mean that Satan was kept from hurting Christians physically.
This can't be overemphasized or repeated too often.
 
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parousia70

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What generation.
You tell me?... you seem to be saying EVERY generation since and including the apostles' generation.

Which verse were you referred to?

Matthew 24:15 of course:
...15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’

who do you say the "YOU" is here, according to the context?

I say it is these people:
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

You say it is NOT those people, but have provided ZERO scriptural instruction to support your view.

Let me know who you think the man of sin in 70AD

The Zealot King and self proclaimed messiah of Israel, MENAHEM BEN JAIR, Grandson of Judas the Galilean. Of course.

that was destroyed with the brightness of Lord's coming. DO you have a historical record of that?

Do I need it?

Seems to me you are on record as claiming Historical records are of no value to you and prove nothing.

Have you suddenly changed your mind?

God Destroyed countless folks with His brightness in OT times... where is your historical record of those happening?

Here's the BIBLICAL truth of the matter:
(1) The "Temple of God" to which Paul is referring is the one that was erect in Jerusalem at the time he is speaking. That was God's temple to the Hebrews since the times of Solomon, and it was still standing.

(2) The man of sin was alive at the time Paul is speaking (2 Thess 2:7). His accomplices in his work of rebellion were the "sons of disobedience" (Eph 2:2; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6), Judaizers who were set apart to receive God's wrath for their persecution of the apostles that were spreading the gospel of Christ to all the gentiles (1 Thess 2:14-16; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6). Judas, a member of the Zealots, had been a part of this political movement, and thus was called "son of perdition" (Jn 17:12/2 Thess 2:3). Judas was acting along with this key political movement when he betrayed Christ to the rulers. The Zealot movement was a violent terrorist movement, and it took over the Temple in AD 66 [the Sicarii (dagger-men terrorists)], launching the Jewish Civil War and Great Revolt against Rome that ended in the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and most of Israel's cities.

(3) The Thessalonians knew the person or political force at the Temple that was restraining the man of sin from taking it over for himself and his militia at the time Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:6).

(4) The Thessalonians were to expect the man of sin to overcome the resistance at the Temple and take it over. Once that event took place, the Thessalonian persecution was close to over (2 Thess 1:4-7/Acts 17:1-8). All the Judaizers of the Empire had made pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Mosaic spring festivals (Deut 16:16/Ex 34:23-24/Ex.23:17) when the Romans came and trapped everyone inside the city then leveled it with "all its children inside" (Lk 19:43-44; Mt 24:1-3)

So, As to the "man of lawlessness/the son of perdition," scripture makes it clear that he was being restrained from siezing control of Herod's Temple in Jerusalem at the time Paul was writing to the Thessalonians (see: 2 Thess 2:6-7). The passage itself shows He was already a blood pumping, air-breathing, grown Human MAN at the time Paul wrote the passage, and the Thessalonians already knew who was restraining him from his takeover of the temple. This man's lawlessness was already at work in the nation of Israel in Paul's day; only he who then restrained this anarchy continued to do so until he was taken out of the way. And then the lawless one was revealed (2 Thess 2:7-8). This, of course, took place at the Jerusalem Temple within about 10 years of Paul's writing.

The Thessalonian congregation actually knew personally who was at that time restraining the son of perdition from taking control of the Temple -- "And you know what restrains him now" (2 Thess 2:6).

So the passage has a fulfillment clearly contemporary with Paul and the 1st century Thessalonians exactly as Paul stated. That 2 Thess 2 passage MUST be past in fulfillment.

Next, we know that the phrases "brightness of his presence" and "spirit of his mouth" don't require a physical incarnation of God, for they never require such anywhere else in the bible when that language is used of God's judgments (see: Ps 44:3, Jer 4:26; Nahum 1:1,5; Isa 30:30-31).

The Jews understood that God governs human events and brings calamities upon nations as His personal judgments. It was through the eyes of faith that Elisha saw God's warring chariots of fire all around during a human battle (2 Kings 6:17). It was through the eyes of faith that Gideon raised his own sword and shouted "the Sword of the Lord" (Judges 7:20-22). It was with the eyes of faith that King David could say of his defeat of King Saul:
"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Likewise it was with the eyes of faith that Jesus labeled the destruction of their country the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and "the Stone which crushes them" (Matt 21:40-45). You see, the Jews understood the rise and fall of nations and empires as God's doing. In none of these instances was a physical incarnation required. And yet in all of these instances God came and waged war and did countless deeds.

The holy city of Revelation 11 is talking about New Testament congregation, making up of two groups of God's people. The True and CHosen Elect (in temple area) and the professed Christians (in the court without the temple). This obviously talked about in the future when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit and was given the court by God as a judgment. None of this was fulfilled in 70AD.

Here you are indeed claiming that Physical Earthly Jerusalem AFTER THE CROSS is known by God as THE HOLY CITY.

You refute yourself.
 
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DavidPT

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Bottomless pit simply means HIS POWER TO DECEIVE or KEEP PEOPLE FROM GETTING SAVED (spoiled by Christ and His Witnesses). That is all. It does not mean that Satan was kept from hurting Christians physically.


If that is what the BP is supposed to mean there, the same should be true of the following passages also. After all, there can't be more than one BP, right?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit

Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


BTW, none of these passages above show satan coming out of the BP.
 
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TribulationSigns

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You tell me?... you seem to be saying EVERY generation since and including the apostles' generation.

Read your quote, "Unless your contention is that every successive generation of the church witnessed the abomination of desolation, then you also agree it's fulfillment can apply to only ONE generation...."

What "one generation" did I talk about that will see the fulfillment? Where did I say that? And Scripture, please since you were the one making an accusation based on?
 
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parousia70

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Read your quote, "Unless your contention is that every successive generation of the church witnessed the abomination of desolation, then you also agree it's fulfillment can apply to only ONE generation...."

What "one generation" did I talk about that will see the fulfillment? Where did I say that? And Scripture, please since you were the one making an accusation based on?


I provided my understanding of two options that I believe your view MUST hold to one of.

If I misunderstand, please clarify for me.

I'l ask directly:
Do you believe the Abomination of Desolation a One time, literal, temporal, recordable event?

Or do you believe the Abomination of Desolation is a Multi- fulfilling event that happens again and again and again?

If there is a third option, then by all means, please elaborate on it for us.
 
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TribulationSigns

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BTW, none of these passages above show satan coming out of the BP.

The beast is the body of Satan personified. They are unsaved people (or Gentiles as opposite to True Jews). Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I'l ask directly:
Do you believe the Abomination of Desolation a One time, literal, temporal, recordable event?

Let me explain...

I believe it is a foregone Biblical conclusion that the sacrificed ceasing is the power of salvation in the testimony of the saints. Because the Bible states that when the Two Witnesses' 1260 days are finished, the testimony of the true witnesses is finished. It does not mean that they can no longer talk, but that the power of the Spirit given them per previous verse to testify unto salvation is over or ended. But by whom?

Dan 12:7
(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The Two Witnesses no longer have such Spirit or power there anymore. The power they had of sacrifice (Romans 12:1; Hebrews 13:15; Philippians 2:17, 4:18, etc.) and offering has ceased in the church. Scripture says these are no longer witnesses (unto salvation) there but killed. There is no more testimony as all these saints (true witnesses) are killed in the streets of that city.

Revelation 11:3
  • "And I will give POWER unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Revelation 11:7
  • "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."
Thus when the 1260 symbolic days are finished, clearly the two Witnesses who were given POWER of God to bring the testimony of salvation, no longer have that power. Sacrifice and offering have ceased because all Israel that God has chosen to seal, has been sealed. All 144,000 of them!! THis has nothing to do with the physical city of Jersualem but the building of New Testament Congregation is finished.

Now after 1,260 days, the 1,290 come with Abomination of Desolation:

Dan 12:9-13
(9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
(10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

There is no disharmony in that verse. It literally reads from the time of the continual [sacrifice] (which is Christ) is taken away, to the giving of the desolating, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety. I believe that this is understood to mean from point A to Point B to point C. In other words, from the sacrifice taken away, A: 1260, to the abomination of desolation, is B: 1290, and to the blessed faithful and patient saints who wait for the end is C: 1335 days.

Daniel 12:11
  • "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
From the time of A to B is 1290 and Blessed are those who wait for C. And "C" being the return of the Lord and consummation. I believe it illustrates there is a time period between 1260 when it begins and 1290 when it falls. From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate setup. Thus the period the two witnesses are killed and remain in thte street of the city for 3 and half day which is symbolical of sleep/Death on the streets before the fall of the congregation when they are to come out. They come out at 1290 and wait for the 1335. I believe it is a very logical progression, spiritual lengths of time rather than literal.

Daniel 12:12
  • "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
Clearly, the period of 1,260 symbolic days is the whole New Testament period when the two witnesses have power to testimony (unto salvation). After the 1260, their testimony is finished. They lay dead in the streets of Great City (church) for 30 days so that at 1290, God's congregation officially falls into desolation. Thus understood, the times intimate that the overthrow of the Church by antichrist, and the delivery of the saints, will be accomplished by two successive interpositions, 1260 is the time of testimony, after 1260 the end of testimony, and 1290 being the fall when they are to come out and wait.

Yes, there is only one time of Abomination of Desolation. However, that did not occur in 70AD. It comes after the 1,260 days of Testimony which will stand on the 1,290th day. Obviously in the future to our time!
 
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BABerean2

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BTW, none of these passages above show satan coming out of the BP.

What is the beast that is in the verse below.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where is this beast now?


Based on the verse below, is that beast an angel?


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Or are they two different spirit beings?

.
 
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DavidPT

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Let me explain...

I believe it is a foregone Biblical conclusion that the sacrificed ceasing is the power of salvation in the testimony of the saints. Because the Bible states that when the Two Witnesses' 1260 days are finished, the testimony of the true witnesses is finished. It does not mean that they can no longer talk, but that the power of the Spirit given them per previous verse to testify unto salvation is over or ended. But by whom?

Dan 12:7
(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The Two Witnesses no longer have such Spirit or power there anymore. The power they had of sacrifice (Romans 12:1; Hebrews 13:15; Philippians 2:17, 4:18, etc.) and offering has ceased in the church. Scripture says these are no longer witnesses (unto salvation) there but killed. There is no more testimony as all these saints (true witnesses) are killed in the streets of that city.

Revelation 11:3
  • "And I will give POWER unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Revelation 11:7
  • "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."
Thus when the 1260 symbolic days are finished, clearly the two Witnesses who were given POWER of God to bring the testimony of salvation, no longer have that power. Sacrifice and offering have ceased because all Israel that God has chosen to seal, has been sealed. All 144,000 of them!! THis has nothing to do with the physical city of Jersualem but the building of New Testament Congregation is finished.

Now after 1,260 days, the 1,290 come with Abomination of Desolation:

Dan 12:9-13
(9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
(10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

There is no disharmony in that verse. It literally reads from the time of the continual [sacrifice] (which is Christ) is taken away, to the giving of the desolating, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety. I believe that this is understood to mean from point A to Point B to point C. In other words, from the sacrifice taken away, A: 1260, to the abomination of desolation, is B: 1290, and to the blessed faithful and patient saints who wait for the end is C: 1335 days.

Daniel 12:11
  • "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
From the time of A to B is 1290 and Blessed are those who wait for C. And "C" being the return of the Lord and consummation. I believe it illustrates there is a time period between 1260 when it begins and 1290 when it falls. From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate setup. Thus the period the two witnesses are killed and remain in thte street of the city for 3 and half day which is symbolical of sleep/Death on the streets before the fall of the congregation when they are to come out. They come out at 1290 and wait for the 1335. I believe it is a very logical progression, spiritual lengths of time rather than literal.

Daniel 12:12
  • "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
Clearly, the period of 1,260 symbolic days is the whole New Testament period when the two witnesses have power to testimony (unto salvation). After the 1260, their testimony is finished. They lay dead in the streets of Great City (church) for 30 days so that at 1290, God's congregation officially falls into desolation. Thus understood, the times intimate that the overthrow of the Church by antichrist, and the delivery of the saints, will be accomplished by two successive interpositions, 1260 is the time of testimony, after 1260 the end of testimony, and 1290 being the fall when they are to come out and wait.

Yes, there is only one time of Abomination of Desolation. However, that did not occur in 70AD. It comes after the 1,260 days of Testimony which will stand on the 1,290th day. Obviously in the future to our time!



You and I might have more things in common than we might realize. I'm somewhat on the same page with you about the majority of what you submitted above. Another good post then.
 
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DavidPT

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What is the beast that is in the verse below.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where is this beast now?


Based on the verse below, is that beast an angel?


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Or are they two different spirit beings?

.


When the beast that we see in Revelation 13 is used, this beast blasphemes God, etc.

If we take note of what comes out of the pit in Revelation 9, we see this.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads .
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Compared with----

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy .
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them
: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

These couldn't possibly be involving this same beast and same events. There is no beast coming out of the pit in Revelation 9 doing any of the things we see the beast in Revelation 13 doing.

In Revelation 9 it is satan's team that is being targeted. In Revelation 13 it is God's team that is being targeted.
 
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ewq1938

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BTW, none of these passages above show satan coming out of the BP.

Some Amils try to suggest the pit opening in the 5th trump is the same events found in Rev 20 when the pit is opened and Satan is released but they are not the same timeframe.

The opening of the pit in Rev 9 is the same exact event and time when the pit is opened in Rev 20.

The problem here is that in Rev 9 onward satan is powerful and successful against his enemies even to the point of overcoming and killing the saints. In Rev 20 satan fails completely with no success against the saints. The other issue is that Rev 9 is the 5th trump/1st woe but Rev 20 is decidedly well after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?
 
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DavidPT

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Some Amils try to suggest the pit opening in the 5th trump is the same events found in Rev 20 when the pit is opened and Satan is released but they are not the same timeframe.

The opening of the pit in Rev 9 is the same exact event and time when the pit is opened in Rev 20.

The problem here is that in Rev 9 onward satan is powerful and successful against his enemies even to the point of overcoming and killing the saints. In Rev 20 satan fails completely with no success against the saints. The other issue is that Rev 9 is the 5th trump/1st woe but Rev 20 is decidedly well after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?


I agree. And to add to what you said, this is what I concluded in my post before yours. In Revelation 9 it is satan's team that is being targeted. In Revelation 13 it is God's team that is being targeted.

Why would satan be coming out of the pit in Revelation 9 in order to attack and torment his own people? If that makes sense to anyone, I'm failing to see exactly how.
 
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DavidPT

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Some Amils try to suggest the pit opening in the 5th trump is the same events found in Rev 20 when the pit is opened and Satan is released but they are not the same timeframe.

The opening of the pit in Rev 9 is the same exact event and time when the pit is opened in Rev 20.

The problem here is that in Rev 9 onward satan is powerful and successful against his enemies even to the point of overcoming and killing the saints. In Rev 20 satan fails completely with no success against the saints. The other issue is that Rev 9 is the 5th trump/1st woe but Rev 20 is decidedly well after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?


When I read posts such as yours, plus what I'm concluding about things, where you and I are usually on the same page about more times than not, how can one believe Amils have thought some of these things all the way through? In order for anything to at least be possible, there has to be some logic to it first. There is no logic in satan coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, then attacking and tormenting his own people.
 
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BABerean2

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Rev 20 is decidedly well after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?

Based on the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18.

Many people try to ignore this verse because it destroys their timeline.

.
 
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