Believers need to understand the Truth

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Yes, brother, I've read so many people on Christian forums talk about
the John 10:29 promise ... without considering the John 27 conditions of:
us hearing Jesus, Jesus knowing us, and us following Jesus.

Some think that a believer will automatically obey after having been saved.
The problem is that they will sometimes contradict themselves and say that a believer can die in one or two unconfessed grievous sins and still be saved. So their concept of holiness is off. They don't understand how even just one grievous sin can destroy their soul. For example, Proverbs says,

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).
 
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To me you are completely disregarding our justification by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. It’s a gift lest anyone should boast Ephesians 2:8. Not only have we been justified but we’ve been made righteous as righteous as Christ. It’s through Christ’s finished work on the cross, not our work to try and not sin. All of our sins have been forgiven at the cross when we come to faith. And we are continually cleansed through the blood of Christ after we have come to faith as well. Sounds like you are saying to have true faith means to walk perfectly and never stumble or sin. Scripture teaches our identity as one born of the spirit is now in Christ a new creation, a Saint not a sinner. Paul address this and says since you have been cleansed since you are no longer an idolater or a liar, or a reviler walk that way. 1 Cor 6:8-11. Peter says in 2 Peter 5-9 that the fruits of the spirit will abound in our lives unless one is shortsighted even to blindness and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Jesus said come to me all you who labor and I will give you rest. God wants those who are his to know they are and be confident that he who started a good work in them will complete it. Without that assurance the Christian life is one of condemnation, struggle, self effort, and listening to accusations of the evil one. God wants us to listen to what he says about us, that we are joint heirs with Christ, and we will reign with him, and right now spiritually, according to Ephesians and Colossians we are already seated in the heavenly‘s because we are in Christ. We are no longer in Adam but in Christ. Spiritually in the new creation, the new man, we are sinless, perfect, righteous, complete. But our bodies have not been redeemed, we still live in a fallen world and we still have an enemy Satan and the power of sin still exists. Paul says we have died to sin though, and reckon that to be true, that we can walk without sins power been over us. But it is a maturing growing process, our walk, and at times we do stumble and sin. With your theology every time we sin we’re no longer in Christ or no longer in the spirit. Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.” The natural progression of your theology is that every time we sin we lose the spirit. Nowhere does scripture say that. Actually that’s when We need the spirit working in us even more, and he does. Paul says in the last verse of the fusions Ephesians 6:24, “ Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love”. Those who are in Christ love the Lord Jesus Christ with an incorrect about lo those who are in Christ love the Lord Jesus Christ with an incorruptible love. How can it be incorruptible? Because God is the source of the love. Romans 5:5 says, “ no hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us”. Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish we are the blessed recipients.

True Justification can be seen in 1 John 1:7. According to 1 John 1:7: You have to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse you of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:8-11. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother) we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So I am sorry. Things are not as you say. True Justification is by obedience to the Lord. For Hebrews 5:9 essentially says hat Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
 
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BCsenior

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God wants those who are his to know they are and be confident that he who started a good work in them will complete it.
Who are you addressing in post #17, brother?
I agree with the above, but IMO there are conditions attached to His promise.
IF we co-operate with Him, He will surely complete His work through the Holy Spirit.
 
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They don't understand how even just one grievous sin can destroy their soul.
Brother, surely you mean one unconfessed-unrepentant sin.
Father God will NOT accept into heaven anyone with any unconfessed-unrepentant sins.
If we are being led by the Spirit we are sons of God (Romans 8:14).
He will point out to us any sins which need to be confessed-repented of.
 
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True Justification can be seen in 1 John 1:7. According to 1 John 1:7: You have to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse you of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:8-11. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother) we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So I am sorry. Things are not as you say. True Justification is by obedience to the Lord. For Hebrews 5:9 essentially says hat Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
True justification comes by the obedience of ONE.. Romans 5:19. True faith rest in Christ as our righteousness. Not our own
 
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Brother, surely you mean one unconfessed-unrepentant sin.
Father God will NOT accept into heaven anyone with any unconfessed-unrepentant sins.
If we are being led by the Spirit we are sons of God (Romans 8:14).
He will point out to us any sins which need to be confessed-repented of.

I agree. That is what I meant, brother.
Unlike many others, I agree with Proverbs 28:13 that says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
 
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True justification comes by the obedience of ONE.. Romans 5:19. True faith rest in Christ as our righteousness. Not our own

So how do you explain 1 John 1:7, 1 John 3:15, and Hebrews 5:9?
 
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Pepper77

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I agree. That is what I meant, brother.
Unlike many others, I agree with Proverbs 28:13 that says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So if you forget one sin you’re doomed? If we are in Christ we are righteous, redeemed forgiven of all our sins.
 
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So if you forget one sin you’re doomed? If we are in Christ we are righteous, redeemed forgiven of all our sins.

Grievous sin (lying, lusting, hating, etc.) is not the same as minor faults of character or minor transgressions (like going over the speed limit a little, or not taking the trash out on time, etc.).

As for future sin being forgiven you:
The Bible does not teach such a thing.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So if future sin is forgiven you, there would be no need to confess sin so as to be forgiven of it.

Also, the Holy Spirit will convicts people of their sins to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus) so as to be forgiven (See John 16:8-9). So there is no such thing as forgetting to confess sin if somebody has accepted the Lord on God’s terms (according to His Word) and not on their own terms.
 
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Pepper77

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Grievous sin (lying, lusting, hating, etc.) is not the same as minor faults of character or minor transgressions (like going over the speed limit a little, or not taking the trash out on time, etc.).

As for future sin being forgiven you:
The Bible does not teach such a thing.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So if future sin is forgiven you, there would be no need to confess sin so as to be forgiven of it.

Also, the Holy Spirit will convicts people of their sins to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus) so as to be forgiven (See John 16:8-9). So there is no such thing as forgetting to confess sin if somebody has accepted the Lord on God’s terms (according to His Word) and not on their own terms.
Grievous sin (lying, lusting, hating, etc.) is not the same as minor faults of character or minor transgressions (like going over the speed limit a little, or not taking the trash out on time, etc.).

As for future sin being forgiven you:
The Bible does not teach such a thing.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So if future sin is forgiven you, there would be no need to confess sin so as to be forgiven of it.

Also, the Holy Spirit will convicts people of their sins to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus) so as to be forgiven (See John 16:8-9). So there is no such thing as forgetting to confess sin if somebody has accepted the Lord on God’s terms (according to His Word) and not on their own terms.

Nowhere else in the New Testament epistles are believers instructed to confess their sins to get forgiven. In Eph 4:32 and Colossians 3:13, Paul says we have been forgiven past tense so to forgive others in the same way that God has forgiven us (past tense). 1John 1:9 is to unbelievers, those who think they have no sin. John is telling them to confess (admit they are sinners and have sinned) and God Will forgive their sins. Vs 10 says if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not an us. That is talking about unbelievers. Same as today unbelievers don’t think they’re sinners in need of a Savior. We receive complete forgiveness when we receive Christ and it is taught all over scripture. If We are required to confess each and every sin as well as confess our faith in Christ then Paul definitely would have advised us to keep doing that. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Christ shed his blood once and that was the complete payment for our sins. “ four by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified”. Hebrews 10:14
 
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Nowhere else in the New Testament epistles are believers instructed to confess their sins to get forgiven. In Eph 4:32 and Colossians 3:13, Paul says we have been forgiven past tense so to forgive others in the same way that God has forgiven us (past tense). 1John 1:9 is to unbelievers, those who think they have no sin. John is telling them to confess (admit they are sinners and have sinned) and God Will forgive their sins. Vs 10 says if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not an us. That is talking about unbelievers. Same as today unbelievers don’t think they’re sinners in need of a Savior. We receive complete forgiveness when we receive Christ and it is taught all over scripture. If We are required to confess each and every sin as well as confess our faith in Christ then Paul definitely would have advised us to keep doing that. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Christ shed his blood once and that was the complete payment for our sins. “ four by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified”. Hebrews 10:14

No. John is writing to believers.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you" (1 John 2:26).

"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father" (1 John 2:13).

1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2).

Other places where we see confession of sin:

18 "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

"And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." (Luke 15:21).

A place where we see a fellow believer is told to repent via by seeking forgiveness with God:

22 "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22-24).
 
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Pepper77

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We now live by the law of the Spirit, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:17 says we became obedient from the heart. God changes our heart when he regenerates us through faith. Salvation by grace through faith. To say that that is how we are initially saved, but then its up to us to keep our salvation by our works negates this. Col 2:6 Says as you have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him. How do we receive Him? By faith. How do we walk in Him? By faith. And that faith will result in obedience. Its the obedience of faith. This was true even under the Old Covenant. "The just shall live by faith". Hab 2:4. Now, though we are sealed with the Spirit, born of the Spirit who is our guarantee. Eph 1:14. We are God's workmanship, saved by grace through faith, not of works, but created in Christ Jesus for good works. Eph 2:8-10. You are absolutely teaching a works salvation, and that is absolutely futile, and contrary to the gospel of grace. Paul said in Gal 5:4 that you have become estanged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. And that is what you are teaching. You say one is justified initially by faith, but then must work to keep themselves justified. That negates the initial justification, and puts man's salvation in his own hands, and man cannot, never save himself.
 
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We now live by the law of the Spirit, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:17 says we became obedient from the heart. God changes our heart when he regenerates us through faith. Salvation by grace through faith. To say that that is how we are initially saved, but then its up to us to keep our salvation by our works negates this. Col 2:6 Says as you have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him. How do we receive Him? By faith. How do we walk in Him? By faith. And that faith will result in obedience. Its the obedience of faith. This was true even under the Old Covenant. "The just shall live by faith". Hab 2:4. Now, though we are sealed with the Spirit, born of the Spirit who is our guarantee. Eph 1:14. We are God's workmanship, saved by grace through faith, not of works, but created in Christ Jesus for good works. Eph 2:8-10. You are absolutely teaching a works salvation, and that is absolutely futile, and contrary to the gospel of grace. Paul said in Gal 5:4 that you have become estanged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. And that is what you are teaching. You say one is justified initially by faith, but then must work to keep themselves justified. That negates the initial justification, and puts man's salvation in his own hands, and man cannot, never save himself.

First, you did not attempt to explain the verses I brought forth that refer to how John was talking to believers and not unbelievers in John's 1st epistle (Which means 1 John 1:9 is written to the believer and not the unbeliever).

Second, James says show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). So when the just LIVE by faith, they live it out by doing good works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

As for Romans 6:17 that says we become obedient from the heart:

Well, you also need to weigh that verse in the balance of other verses that say things like this to the believer:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

In fact, we are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

How can these above truths in Scripture be true if the believer just automatically obeys?

You also quoted Colossians 2:6 that says,
"as you have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him. "

I am not sure how this verse helps you. Walking in Jesus is about keeping His commandments.

"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it." (2 John 1:6).

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). This means if we are not loving Jesus in the way that Jesus wants by the keeping of His commandments, we are accursed.

As for your reference to Ephesians 2:8-9:

This is talking primarily about "Initial Salvation." For by grace are saved through faith, and not that of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Gifts are received how many times? One time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 says that you have been quickened. How many times have you been quickened? I am assuming one time, right? So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 3:17 talks about how Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. So Paul is talking about how Christ needs to dwell in a person's heart (i.e. Initial Salvation).

Ephesians 2:9 is referring to "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace) because it is referring to how a man would boast in his own work.

I believe God does the good work through me as Scriptures teaches (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13). This means any good work done in my life results in me boasting in God and not in myself. Ephesians 2:9 is referring to a man directed work whereby he would boast in himself about it.

For I do not believe I am saved by works of my own power in how I am initially or ultimately saved. I believe I am initially and ultimately saved by God's grace.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works done through the believer because they are the kind of works that the believer is created to do in Christ Jesus since the foundation of the world.

Paul is saying do not put the cart before the horse.

However, why did Paul appear at times to speak against works and or the Law?

Well, Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Paul was not against the necessity of obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ.

For Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).
 
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BCsenior

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As for future sin being forgiven you: The Bible does not teach such a thing.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So if future sin is forgiven you, there would be no need to confess sin so as to be forgiven of it.
“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NKJV)

“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB
 
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“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NKJV)

“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

I agree, brother. Only past sin is forgiven.
 
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BCsenior

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Believers who are convinced that they are going to heaven no matter what
(i.e. believers in OSAS - eternal security) really have NO need to:
-- study the NT to understand what it is saying
-- practice righteousness
-- obey Jesus' commandments
-- co-operate with the Holy Spirit
etc. etc.
 
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Pepper77

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“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NKJV)

“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Because Peter says we are cleansed from our old sins does not mean we are not cleansed from our future sins. One statement does not exclude the other.
 
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Pepper77

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Believers who are convinced that they are going to heaven no matter what
(i.e. believers in OSAS - eternal security) really have NO need to:
-- study the NT to understand what it is saying
-- practice righteousness
-- obey Jesus' commandments
-- co-operate with the Holy Spirit
etc. etc.
Believers who are convinced that they are going to heaven no matter what
(i.e. believers in OSAS - eternal security) really have NO need to:
-- study the NT to understand what it is saying
-- practice righteousness
-- obey Jesus' commandments
-- co-operate with the Holy Spirit
etc. etc.
Believers who are convinced that they are going to heaven no matter what
(i.e. believers in OSAS - eternal security) really have NO need to:
-- study the NT to understand what it is saying
-- practice righteousness
-- obey Jesus' commandments
-- co-operate with the Holy Spirit
etc. etc.

Well, that's interesting. Maybe we do study, practice righteousness and obey Jesus's commandments because that's who we are now. Its who we are so it's what we do...we are joined to Him, love Him, and make it our aim to live our lives pleasing to Him because He has joined us to Him. We love Him because He first loves us. We show who we are by our works, but the works do not save us. We have a fundamentally different understanding of what happens at as you call it, initial salvation. When this happens again may not always be when a person walks an aisle, makes a profession of faith, etc. Its when they truly trust in Christ as their saviour, knowing there is nothing they can do to save or help save themselves, and rely totally on Christ for that. At that point in time, whenever it is, we are placed spiritually in Christ, no longer in Adam, and Christ dwells in us by the Holy Spirit. 1Cor 6:17 says we are joined to the Lord and one spirit with Him. Jesus spoke of us being one with Himself and the Father in John's gospel. He makes us a new creation, changes who we actually are. I do not believe scripture teaches that can ever change. God does not go back on His promises. Salvation is an ongoing process, but it starts with the sealing of the Spirit when He makes us a new creation and it continues as He conforms us to His image. He does the creating. You are saying he creates us in Christ, joins us to Christ and then may discard us, because His creation is not good. I think His creation is perfect and so does God. I have studied ALL the verses you are using to try and prove otherwise, and could take alot of time and address them all, but do not believe that would not make a difference. You believe salvation is by faith plus works. I see who we are in Christ as God's creation, completely by grace through faith that will absolutely produce works in our life, and actually changes who we are at the core, not just what we do.
 
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